Sorry, Joyce, I know it feels like all gay people are cool when you’re looking in from outside, but once you’re inside, you realize that being gay doesn’t actually make you any cooler.
Also, are you identifying as gay or not? You’re confusing me here.
Pretty sure she currently identifies as gay despite being attracted to men, because hasn’t yet internalized all the stuff she learned from gender studies.
good old bi panic; the eternal struggle of not knowing how much or little you feel about the opposite and same sex, and the indecision of whether you are or are not just gay.
She may have been exposed to lots judgmental adults commentating on people around them that “oh remember so-and-so’s daughter who tried to tell us all she was lesbian? Well guess what, she’s dating a man now!” “Ha! Didn’t I tell you that hussy was just making it all up for attention?” “You sure did Beatrice! And didn’t I tell you that’s what happens when you let don’t raise your kids right? That family is just no good” [etc]. That’s probably highly internalized to her view on what is “required” to “count” as bi (also apparently a word she has not internalized yet).
yup; she’s internalized a lot of shame from that, and it’s not easy to unlearn that kind of mentality. Even if she’s going through a sapphic euphoria, she’s trying hard to view actual gay people as being above jer, because she’s trying hard to not be compared.
But also as she said yesterday, because gay people (Becky) are heroic inspirational warriors (Becky) and she hasn’t really had to fight to be allowed to be gay, so she hasn’t earned that status.
yup yup; Joyce subconsciously also probably rejected her previous attempts at defending herself from Raidah as well. She got all of one person willing to use bigotry against her as a get back tool, but her coming out has been met with a “well no shit” lol
That doesn’t really seem to fit with what we’ve seen of her church’s approach to LGBTQ issues. More that it all gets lumped together as sin under “the gay” umbrella. They don’t accept sexual orientation as a thing, it’s just a perversion.
Sure but church members don’t necessarily hold themselves to high standards when gossipping about people. That whole hypothetical convo may be just trampling the fact that it’s supposed to be entirely moot to them, but that wouldn’t stop them from doing it because their religion is just about who they get to feel better than (parapgrasong becky’s words). I bet she heard similar from homeschool group kids as well, who are maybe ulating parents with a less strict bubble than Joyce’s. Her mom also watched the conservative propafanda delivery systems, I don’t put auch behavior past them.
To be fair, many straight people probably think this way in part due to decades of gay rights activism that championed a “we can’t help it” message as the crux of the argument for accepting same sex relationships. I have literally seen campaign footage and heard arguments from people saying that they basically wouldn’t be gay if they could help it but a same sex relationship is the only way for them to be happy. While this certainly seems true for some Kinsey 6s, it is not an argument that helps bisexual people or advances acceptance of all us having freedom to form relationships with whoever we consent to. I personally had family members who were sold on such arguments but wouldn’t accept my bisexuality. I find it important to recognize that such sound bites often come from LGBT people themselves. My own gay uncle called bisexual people “fence sitters.”
But she’s also talked about how she’s not genuinely gay, but only technically gay because of Dorothy. Which sounds more like a “straight with an exception” claim. Or even Jennifer’s “straight but it’s okay with your best friend”.
Seriously tho’ I think it used to look cool because movies made it look cool because it gave actors something to do with their hands and most actors like, professionally, make things look cool and damn, they’re good at it.
Do you think a lot of smokers who happen to be lame are simply representatives of humanity as a whole and that the stereotype of smoking/smokers being cool highlights their lameness?
Or
Do you think a large number of smokers who are lame took up smoking because they hoped they would become cool by doing so?
I grew up in a smoking household, and am the only one of my family who never picked up the habit at any point. Quite the contrary: I have an aversion to handling tobacco products or trash, like butts or filters, as if they were poop – never bare-handed, always tissue or gloves.
I counter question this by asking does Walky want her to know? Getting cheated on can be considered embarrassing by some. Maybe it’s just me but I always default to minding my own business with other’s romantic relationships until they tell me. I kinda think Walky feels bad enough without telling his sister his love failures so he’s keeping it relatively cool or as cool as one can be with Joyce rubbing it in his face.
Meh. I try my best not to take anything personally in these psuedo-anonymous conversation forums. Especially since tone is hard to convey in text and at least in my experience folks are quick to take insult. Best to try and take most comments in the benefit of doubt with sincerity and politeness. In the spirit of that I do humbly apologize to Dot for mucking up her thread with nonsense.
My feelings aren’t hurt if that brings comfort to anyone.
1. I was responding to sirksome tounge in cheek comment, not to Dots comment, which doesn’t factor in at all in what i said.
2. Dot didn’t even say anything like that in their original comment? They might have said that in some other comment i don’t know about, i wouldn’t know, and if they did, it still wouldn’t matter because my comment doesn’t say anything about the cheating? Just the general situation of the current plotline.
Seriously, this is the internet. You’re writing, not speaking, so we can’t hear your tone of voice, for example. Also, Poe’s law: it is impossible to create a parody that nobody will mistake for the real thing.
Yes i am aware of that, i am autistic I often have that problem, i could had phrased that better (the “obvious joke” comment not the original one, i still say there isn’t anything wrong with that). And i really cannot do anything if someone will inevitable mix up a joke for a real opinion.
Sal might be applying her own coping mechanisms, somewhat. She’d likely take a similarly dismissive attitude towards her own exes. If you aren’t that invested emotionally, they can’t hurt you.
1) Sal’s too cool for school papers.
2) That doesn’t mean she knows the timeline. She knows Dorothy dumped Walky for Joyce. She doesn’t know when that happened compared to the Kiss (or them making out, which she saw on the way home.)
I don’t know how much good it’ll do when or if Sal knows the timeline. Once she had sufficient evidence, Billie wasn’t exactly chomping at the bit to pick Walky’s pieces up. More obligation than anything.
We’ve all seen Jacob shirtless. You have body fat bro. Them tiddies only come from having huge pecs and some good body fat on top. Less than most people tho probably
When I first played civ I as a 10 yo I didn’t know you could build farms so only one of my cities even hit double digit pop. Learning that I could do that was a revelation lol
As a Repressed Teen, I read sections of Clan of the Cave Bear, a book rumors held was Sexy, when it was briefly available at a friend of my parent’s house as a source to try to grasp How Sex Works (TM).
It … didn’t really help.
She hasn’t shown herself as secretly gay for Lucy yet, but I won’t rest until she’s expressed completely oblivious attraction for every character in this strip.
The lifetime of gay slang:
– black (potentially trans) women and/or black drag queens make it up
– white gay men pick it up and use it so much people think they started it
– straight white women pick it up. Straight white men use it “ironically”
– everyone is using it
– corporations start using it in ads
– popularity starts falling off
– Dorothy Keener in Indiana discovers it and passes it on to her gf
even being bi; I’ve never understood the “no body fat” thing. Like, a fit man or woman still has to have some softness and curves, I don’t want to hug a rock.
It’s definitely one of those aesthetics that seemingly mostly cis men think LOOKS good. It does also seem that a lot more folks like to LOOK at that aesthetic compared to the number of folks who’d want it to be actualized in someone they actually had to cuddle with.
I think its that usual “this is what fit people are supposed to look like”, when actual fit people can some fat on the bone, and real muscle men and women are built out like barrels rather than the show muscle types.
I don’t think Ruth likes Jason at all, which is why I love them as a couple so much. 100% apathy on both sides, glued together by the plot and a single spec of pollen. I know I always complained about Lucy and Walky having zero chemistry, but Ruth and Jason genuinely have no chemistry, but they have so much “no chemistry” that it somehow becomes amusing anyways. They appear once every few hundred strips to be awkward as hell and then disappear, it’s wonderful.
I’m so conflicted cuz I want Walky and Amber to reconnect and start dating EXPEDITIOUSLY but I also don’t for both character and narrative reasons. If time was allowed to pass so that he has weeks or even months to proccess these things it’d be one thing but because we’re stuck in each day for weeks if he doesn’t have remarkably short rebound windows he’ll basically spend the entire rest of the comic single.
I’m kind of okay with that. Not every character has to ultimately end up with someone. Maybe we get a Walky who in the end of things seems like he’ll inevitably patch things up with Amber or there’s a promise of sometime in the future but for now he just embraces the solitude.
I feel you Yotomoe. I know it would probably be better for Walky to remain single for at least a few days bare minimum, but I want my beautiful Walber/Amky/(?) ASAP.
Perhaps after Dumbing of Age winds down, all the characters will become pirates in a new webcomic called Bums and Rums, and Walky the Plank will start dating guys then.
Make it really weird and throw in Amber to write fanfics in about it, and occasionally participate when she feels like it.
Chant with me now!
POLY-CULE! POLY-CULE! POLY-CULE!
…Amber having all her trauma and longing in one tight assed, triple-double cheeked, yaoi and yaoi-curious man package. Ethan for the friendship, Asher for the hate-fucking Mike provided in another universe for her, and Walky for the companionship and gaming.
Sometimes i wonder if it’s confusing for people that Joyce being a cringy jackass actually make me like her moee. I think it makes her very entertaining.
Imagine how terrifying it’ll be when she figures out that she’s making her realizations other people’s problem? She’ll simultaneously learn something, and somehow have to ignore that information to make it a problem.
Totally unrelated to the comic itself, but I found myself in a room with people who give a shit about football and I understand Indiana just did the impossible or something?
Yeah it was pretty weird when the one team’s linebacker literally turned into an eagle and carried the ball away. Broke, like, three regulations or something idk sports.
They won the Big 10 conference title for the first time in 80 years and will likely have the #1 seed in the upcoming college football playoffs. Even more impressive seeing as how they were one of the conference tomato cans just a couple of years ago.
My apologies if your eyes glazed over after “Big 10.”
Anyway my wild guess for Walky’s new girlfriend that he will somehow have by the end of the storyline is Jocelyne. Dating the virtually-identical-looking sister of the girl that just swiped his girlfriend sounds like a recipe for drama and/or hijinx.
You stole my girlfriend, prepare to be my sister in law.
I wonder if Joyce loves dotty more than she’d hate the constant “heyyy sis” jokes (she does). It’d make sal her sister in law too so hey maybe she’d encourage it for exclusively that reason
Sorry Joyce, it’s actually a module that you need to install and it’s only available if you’ve moved to a unix-based internal system. If you never bothered to move away from an NT Kernel you can’t get the coolness update
I think I’ve reached a point of just… Constant sadness when it comes to Walky? Can he get just one win? Please? Can one single character be genuinely kind to him without talking down to him or hitting him?
As I had stated previously on the patreon, we’re going to get a situation where Walky either crashes out via self-harm, rage, depression, isolation, or something so jarring that everyone else in the cast will be like
“WALKY DID WHAT? IMPOSSIBLE! WHO COULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING!?”
Yeah, I’ve been worried about Walky for a fair bit. It really doesn’t feel like he’s really addressed a lot of stuff that happened just before the time skip, just coasting along because he doesn’t want to lose the image of being cool.
I think Becky is showing way more signs of danger and depression. That’s why I worry about her more, even if I believe Walky has more reason to be upset. He’s out there, he’s going to class, still interacting with his “friends” had people to talk to about it. Becky spent the last several hours alone in her room dooming and staring at who knows what on her phone. The first thing she’s really said was basically “It sucks to be me. I couldn’t hack it.” I think it’s clear they’re in different places mentally.
I mean there is reason to worry. Sarah has personal experience rooming with someone who was good at faking they were okay around their friends. I just think Walky has had opportunity to privately crash that he hasn’t done. That’s a better sign to me at least.
He rooms with someone who would poke and needle him if he wanted to just hide from the world, like this morning. He doesn’t get a lot of private crash out time.
I feel like in universe it’s because Walky is better at the mask than Becky is. Also Becky very publicly went through some insane shit so that’s more at the forefront of people’s minds. Walky’s good at keeping people at an arms length and performing the whole “I refuse to be traumatized by this” schtick. I agree that people should absolutely think about it more and worry about him but boy is good at what he does ig.
Will say, and i know you dont like them, but that is what booster was doing. They were trying to get him out of bed to keep him from wallowing, reach out to someone who can comfort him and let him know why she’s being so cagey so he can try and dismantle that, help make sure his grades don’t slip. You can disagree with their methods, you can hate them, but that was ultimately their intent.
If so, at this point it’ll be Raidah, the only person in the entire cast who will even PRETEND to give a single solitary shit about him. For that exact reason: she’s willing to act like he has feelings that can be hurt.
I think part of it is that he kinda treats himself as a punching bag, so he just accepts it. Part of it is that we never really get anything in the narrative that challenges that…
With the Lucy arc we get:
Lucy: “Fuck you! I deserve better than you!”
Walky: “Yeah, that sounds right. I suck”
and that’s where we stop. In the comic we are never given anything to challenge Lucy’s rationalization that it was Walky’s fault and he messed up.
The ‘anything’ was the breakup. That’s the consequences. Also, Walky pingponged right to Dorothy only to be hurt, so clearly there’s something ramping up for him when it comes to how he goes about his relationships.
So he messed up…and yet the only thing he changed about his behavior was going “racistmomsayswhat” and then went right back to his usual ways. And it sure looks like he’s not going to have to change all that much to get back with Amber.
I generally agree that there were a lot of ways that Walky *was* being unfair to Lucy, but the problem is that the narrative completely dropped them in order to put Walky in the situation he’s in now. There wasn’t any followthrough. And the cause of Walky’s pain now is not because he’s done *anything* wrong by Dorothy. We can’t get into a narrative of “Walky is a kind of crappy boyfriend and learns to be better” because that’s not what happened. Instead what happened was “Dorothy used Walky and threw him away when she got what she really wanted”.
It’s not really clear to me what you think he messed up that he could have changed. What usual ways did he go back to that he shouldn’t have? Other than possibly Dorothy.
— And comments like this are why it is bad that the comic never addressed the issue.
No. Walky didn’t mess up.
Lucy is free to break up with anyone for any reason, but just because she doesn’t want to date Walky doesn’t make that “Walky’s fault”.
Walky did what was reasonable to shield Lucy from his parents. He told her what Linda was like. He encouraged her to just avoid his parents. He never expected or asked her to come along.
That was all Lucy. Lucy was the one who decided it was imperative that she make Linda love her. But, suprise suprise, the person Walky said was racist was in fact racist.
And that isn’t something Lucy can change, and it isn’t something Walky can change.
“Walky didn’t do enough to stand up to his parents and defend Lucy”.
Nonsense. At the start when Linda was being rude by completely looking over Lucy, Walky immediately corrected her.
After that Linda wasn’t actually going after Lucy. She was going after Walky. She was making snide comments about how Walky wasn’t doing good enough. And if asked to explain she obviously wasn’t going to say “he can do better than Lucy”, she would say “he can do better than failing his classes and drawing cartoons”.
What Walky can do to protect Lucy is to not force her to interact with his parents. And he did that. Lucy choosing to ignore his advice is on her.
For me, that says all that’s really needed to say. She is literally saying that by being with Lucy, Walky is ‘slumming it’. Especially since, in Linda’s eyes, Lucy is the one encouraging Walky to ‘slum it’ by drawing cartoons.
What a productive conversation! I love it! Fantastic! Wonderful! Completely correct! I am a mere bug before your wisdom! Fuck me five ways to hell I suppose! I’ll go fuck myself! Maybe then you’ll be satisfied! Hooray!!!!!!!!!
I’d say one of the big differences between the situation with defending Lucy and defending Amber is that defending Lucy required diving straight into the “Mom you’re racist” thing, which is a far more fraught conversation than whether Amber’s a rambly nothing or not.
And while the “slumming it” clearly had that racist intent and impact, it wasn’t explicit and the conversation leading up to it was focused on Walky’s school choices and the webcomic, so claiming it wasn’t racist or directed at Lucy would have been easy and hard to argue with.
Even thought it was.
Agreed, Lucy clearly broke up with Walky because she realized she was far more in love with Walky than he was her, as well as clearly still feeling hurt and burnt out by how Linda has treated her. Yeah, she reassured Walky afterwards that it wasn’t his fault and she still loved him, but it still hurts and she’s allowed to reflect afterwards and decide she doesn’t deserve to be talked down to like that. Religion had nothing to do with their break up.
@Doopyboop: also yeah it was sooooo obviously a cascade of badness. Lucy tried to push through each time, and eventually couldn’t.
Walky being intensely negative about her religion was, like, not something she ENJOYED. I’m sure it would be somewhere on a long list of reasons she realized they weren’t going to work out? But definitely not top three.
Also something that keeps frustrating me on this point is people acting like it’s a binary situation.
Like. I think it’s possible NOT to blame Walky for not standing up for his mom because one recognizes that that was a really difficult situation and maybe doesn’t feel comfortable passing judgment on him, but ALSO to understand that it’s actually completely fine for that to have been a deal breaker for Lucy?
There’s a real whiff of “it’s actually only okay to break up with someone if they wronged you” round these parts, and it keeps cropping up every time a breakup happens or is even mentioned.
Hopefully it’s just… immaturity, because approaching life with the idea that breakups are fundamentally a bad thing to do to another person that they must “deserve” is a terrible way to live one’s own life.
@Odo – I think you’re absolutely right about the Walky/Lucy breakup. He warned off his parents over and over again and she didn’t listen. I guess he was just supposed to stand up and tell his mom, who he’s still dependent on and has been terrifying him his whole life, to fuck off in public or he’s not good enough for Lucy. It’s a ridiculous standard to hold him to.
He warned her about his parents exactly once, then they both schemed a silly ass sitcom shenanigan plot regarding Amber. And seeing how he was able to stand up to his mother to defend Amber, and then AFTER the break up also stood up to his mother, as well as having already stood up for his sister as well, clearly he is able to. It’s complicated, yes, because he depends on her, but acting as if that means Walky should just sit there and let his girlfriend be degraded for the crime of being black, and she’s just supposed to take it, that’s fucked up too. You know that’s fucked up, right?
If the racism angle is too difficult, let’s think of it like this. When Joyce introduced Dorothy to her father, let’s imagine instead of the ‘eh’ acceptance he gave, he instead responded by telling Joyce that he raised her better than to slum it up with lesbians and atheists. He thought better of her, and that she is destined to be with a man as God intended. Standing up for Dorothy would be difficult, but if Joyce truly loves Dorothy and wishes to have a future with her, she WILL stand up for her girlfriend in some way. If instead she just let that slide and Dorothy is just expected to either end the relationship or continue to suffer being told she is a lesser partner to Joyce because she’s a woman… I mean, the reasonable choice IS to break up, no? So why are people so mad Lucy did exactly that?
Once again though, Linda didn’t say “you are slumming it because you are dating a black woman”. She said just said “you’re slumming it”.
So your comparison doesn’t work. If you wanted it to be a reasonable comparison it would be Joyce’s dad going “Oh, you’re dating Dorothy. I see…. I heard you’re an atheist now, and I am very disappointed that you’ve turned your back on god. We raised you better”
The critical difference is that he doesn’t say he is more hostile due to bigotry, rather he uses a plausible alternative reason.
That’s the implication of what she is saying, Odo, that is why Lucy looks down and is upset. Do you need the characters to stare directly into the 4th wall and state “I am being racist” or use the N word? Or is it enough to have Linda imply that being in a relationship with Lucy means Walky isn’t living up to his full potential and the other characters react with “man she’s pretty fucking racist for that”? c’mon, man. Jesus fucking christ.
Because not living up to Lucy’s outsized expectations doesn’t mean Walky screwed up. Them breaking up was inevitable no matter what happened with Walky’s parents, because Lucy was trying to stay blind to all the reasons they didn’t work and Walky was just trying to go along with it.
Defending someone from implicit racism is a heck of a lot more difficult than defending someone from explicit racism.
I am not arguing “Linda wasn’t being racist” I am arguing that it is hecking difficult for Walky to try to defend Lucy from Linda’s racism when that racism is expressed as snide comments towards Walky.
Because the reason why we know it was racist has a lot to do with the background we saw established leading up to “slumming it”.
If you just saw those panels in isolation would we think “Linda is really racist” or “Linda is has strict expectations for her son’s career path, is grumpy at him for failing a class, and uses some problematic vocabulary”.
Either Walky chooses that moment to start laying out a big case for how Linda shows a pattern of racism over time, which is opening a giant confrontation right then and there, a confrontation that Walky is not going to win because Linda will just continue to deny and deflect… Or Walky might try to call out the limited example of problematic language (“slumming it”).
But try starting a conversation with your parent about culturally sensitive language while they are chewing you out about failing a class. Even if they are receptive to such critique, they probably will say it’s not the priority right that moment.
—
Walky CANNOT make Linda not racist. He cannot make her stop acting racist or making racist comments.
He can protect Lucy by respecting that Lucy might not be willing to be around Linda, and supporting that boundary by not expecting Lucy to be around his mother. He did this.
@Odo I feel like this argument is trying very hard to wash away Walky’s flaws. Character flaws that been pretty consistent in him from the start of the comic. Avoiding confrontation, going with the flow of events instead of using his agency, inability to confront his parents. I do agree that Lucy is also at fault for that breakup but you’ve made all the wrong points. She shouldn’t have to tolerate Linda’s racism and Walky should’ve defended her even if doing so was difficult. Those are his failures to own.
Lucy’s failures were having expectations for the relationship she didn’t earn. She assumed Walky loved her because they hung out as friends for a few months. Those expectations are ultimately what created the opportunities for Walky’s own weaknesses and failings to show. Hold Lucy accountable for that, for essentially pressuring Walky into a level of commitment he wasn’t ready for, but you also need to hold him accountable for not being brave enough to communicate that to Lucy or defend her to his parents until after the fact. Lucy did deserve better than that.
Once upon a time, Odo, I had a crush on a guy. This guy happened to be a black guy. When my mom learned he was black, she was quick to tell me that I “needed to be careful” because “some people in the family wouldn’t approve of that”. I will admit that I misjudged this, and thought that my mom was trying to be covert about her own misgivings, you know, trying to be implicitly racist. I learned later that no, she was just sincerely trying to warn me that our extended family was racist as fuck but when I thought my mom was being implicitly racist about a guy I had a crush on, I laid into her instantly.
I told her that anyone who doesn’t approve of him based on his skin color is no family of mine, I told her that I was ashamed of her and didn’t expect her to say such things. And for my mom’s part, she didn’t even try to defend herself. She just accepted what I said, probably because she realized even from a place of trying to be helpful, saying “be careful about dating a black guy” is a bad look. And I will say, I was a lot more afraid of my mom than Walky is of Linda. The most Linda will do is give him disapproving looks and be a passive aggressive bongo. Meanwhile, I’ve personally seen my mom break a wooden paddle over my cousin’s ass as well as breaking things in our kitchen. Walky cannot make Linda stop being racist, and the most he can do is protect Lucy from further interactions with Linda, but he didn’t even talk to Lucy about what his mother said to her. Sirksome is right about the parts both Lucy and Walky had to play in the relationship not working, but I’ll keep saying it over and over, Lucy does indeed deserve better than how Linda treated her.
“Mom, I’m ashamed of you. How could you say that I’m slumming it just because of the color of my girlfriend’s skin?! Lucy is wonderful and you are racist”
How do you think that would go? Would Linda listen and be receptive? Would her behavior meaningfully change?
I really, really doubt it. We saw exactly how she would react when Walky did call her racist. She called it a distraction. She minimized her own behavior. She said she couldn’t be racist because she married a black man and voted for Obama.
Walky calling out Linda does not change Linda’s behavior because Linda is not your mom. Linda is racist, not just saying something poorly but with good intentions.
And the worst Linda can do to Walky isn’t a dirty look. She could likely force him to abandon his university education. Walky already saw how she dealt with her less favored child.
Of course Lucy deserves better than Linda. And it is fair for Lucy to decide that Linda being in her life via Walky is too much, and to break up over that. But Linda being racist is not Walky’s fault.
We don’t blame Ruth for having Clint as a grandfather. We don’t blame Joyce for her mother. Let’s not act as if these college students have control over their abusive parents.
Its not a Denial that Bisexuality exists, its a Denial of Self.
She loves Dorothy and believes in the whole “One True Love” deal, so to acknowledge that she might have Loved Joe, or anybody besides Dorothy, is unthinkable. In her mind she has now always loved Dorothy (which is accurate, since she met her anyway), and to have loved anybody else would be a betrayal of that.
not really? Intent matters here more then Interpretation.
Yes what Joyce is doing COULD be perceived as Bi-Erasure, but thats not at all where her head is at or she views sexuality.
Joyce is horrible at self reflection or just understanding herself in general, we can blame the church for that. She is also not very knowledgeable about sexuality and how relationships are supposed to work. She knew nothing about them before entering college and has not exactly had a good set of people to learn about it from. Billie is a Disaster Bi and Danny is not in her friend group.
On another note, whether or not somebody is a sexuality or not, is up to them how they want to label it. Even if she fully understood herself and accepted her attractions as they were, it would not be Bi-Erasure for her to simply not use the Label of Bisexual. Lots of people do not put a Label on their sexuality or Gender, and in doing so it is not Erasure of those Sexuality or Genders.
Erasure is when you say Other people can’t be this or that, its to say that those Sexualities or Genders do not exist, which is not at all what Joyce is doing.
It’s up to them to label themselves, to a point. It’s got to reflect reality. We’re not, for example, going to accept that Jennifer is straight.
As for Joyce, it’s hard to say exactly what she’s doing. She hasn’t said she’s bisexual certainly. She’s said she’s gay, but also that she’s only technically gay because of Dorothy – which sounds to me like she’s saying she’s “straight with an exception”. Other than using the term “gay”, she hasn’t denied attraction to guys.
Notably, I don’t think she’s used “lesbian” at all
I think its more Joyce still has a lifetime of depictions of “gay” people as completely over the top caricatures. Like the her upbringing would have basically used “gay” as a synonym for hedonistic.
There is probably some element of her reconciling that image of gay people as full flaming pride parade 24/7 against her reality of them being just normal people.
Sal still has unresolved anger towards Walky that she’s processing, and Sal, Walky, and Billie/Jennifer have never had the most healthy sibling dynamic. That doesn’t excuse her being mean, but it’s not totally out of left field either.
They are siblings, their level of poking at eachother is valid, also Sal is right, if Walky wanted another girlfriend, he could fairly easily find another girl to date, or re-date by the end of the day, he is actually good with women in some weird way.
Ironically, that’s a very sexist attitude of Sal. Because it falls into the trap that men aren’t emotionally invested in relationships and can easily replace them.
Its not about Walky being a Guy though, its about Walky being Walky and how he has handled relationships since he got into college, and potentially before that. Dude jumps between relationships within a day of the breakup sometimes and acts Unfazed about it every time except this time.
Except the reason he got with Amber is because he was very much fazed by Dorothy dumping him, and tweeting back and forth with Amber was the only thing that made him feel better (he told Sal that when she caught them).
And he spent months without any romantic partner after Halloween.
Then he got with Lucy and was/is still fazed by that breakup; he really only got back with Dorothy because Dorothy was sexually frustrated and dude doesn’t really do casual relationships.
If Dorothy wasn’t crashing out sexually, he more than likely wouldn’t have gotten romantically involved with her at the time, being, again, still fazed by Lucy dumping him (and confronting his mom), and that he’s pretty passive about this stuff.
Remember that Walky apparently never even had an interest in women until he saw Dorothy; just the sight of her pushed his buttons for the first time and then he fell in love with her over time.
Amber, despite that I prefer their relationship over him being with Dorothy, and despite having similar features as Dorothy, didn’t get him going with looks alone, but with strong feelings, being on the rebound, and other stuff.
Lucy, on the other hand, was a friend first and he probably never would have said anything if Dorothy didn’t suggest it, so now he lost a friend and a girlfriend.
Dorothy has been the catalyst, directly or indirectly, behind all of his romantic pairings, and here she is again, ending it after *just* getting back with him, and doing so due to cheating no less.
Looking at it like that (which she is not doing, of course), Sal is wrong to treat this as something he’ll easily get over, at least this soon.
And considering that he only ever dated within the friend group, it’s unlikely that he’ll get with anyone today – barring Dina, Becky and/or Joe suddenly wanting to experiment – as every one in the group is paired off (or laid up with injuries).
Of course, there is the dark horse option where Raidah somehow figures a way to “ara ara” him, maybe through mutual Joyce hatin’.
“Dorothy has been the catalyst, directly or indirectly, behind all of his romantic pairings, and here she is again, ending it after *just* getting back with him, and doing so due to cheating no less.”
This really hits, I hadn’t considered just how deep her involvement was before.
Jennifer/Billie even points out to Dorothy when confronting her and Joyce about how Dorothy doesn’t “appreciate the hold she has on Walky” (before Dorothy and Joyce decided to make even that about them).
I thought she made a good point, and was a bit bummed to see how quickly it was written off
My only argument with this is that I don’t think that it was Dorothy being sexually frustrated that led to them getting back together, though that was a reasonable assumption at the time. It was already her trying to avoid her interest in Joyce.
It treats women as disposable too, but it’s Sal attempting a pep talk here. She’d be similarly dismissive of any guy that broke her heart, and act like she was never emotionally invested in him. That’s Sal’s coping mechanism, being cool and detached so people can’t hurt her. (Similar to Walky’s sarcasm and goofball act.)
She’s warmer than she used to be towards Walky, but I don’t think she’s taking his relationships that seriously. She was pretty dismissive to Lucy while they were dating too.
I think if Walky really starts hurting she might show a bit more empathy, but at this point when he seems only superficially hurt I don’t think she’s going to be too kind
He IS really hurting now, and she is dismissing him, though. There’s no indication that she’ll show any more empathy for ‘real’ pain because he is in it right now and her response is ‘suck it up ya big wuss baby’.
Let me rephrase, I think if she perceived how serious the harm was she’d be less dismissive, but Walky outwardly presents as pretty durable. I do not think she recognizes the extent
In previous comments, many began to express their anger towards Sal. And the truth is, I would have liked to see some venom from her towards Joyce.
Hmmm, at least she values her brother… in her own way.
The best thing is that Walky got a break from all that and discovered another kind of love, self-love.
And that he at least keeps his distance from Joyce and Dorothy (Not forever, I know they’ll run into each other, and I hope that Dorothy at least sincerely apologizes).
She won’t. She seems to think Joyce’s ‘cruel laughter and mockery’ breakup with Walky on her behalf was adorable, funny, and perfect.
No one in this comic ever genuinely thinks they’ve done Walky wrong, I increasingly think. No one ever considers he even has feelings to be hurt, much less that they have hurt said feelings.
Despite Walky being rather sloppy and lazy, he is good with women, or was until Recently when he lost a lot of self confidence.
I don’t think that Walky, in his current state, will be having a healthy relationship that goes beyond a rebound 1 night stand for a bit. Unless Amber suddenly becomes able to move without severe pain and Walky gets the backbone to go and actually talk to her in person.
Also good on Sal for calling him out, dude has been swapping between 2 girls his entire college life and managed to slip a 3rd girl in between the two. If given the option, he would probably have already gotten back together with Amber, if she wasn’t to banged up to bang. Honestly the two deserve each other. They might not make each other BETTER, but they certainly have more potential then Walky and Dorothy ever did.
“Swapping between two girls his entire college life” is a weird take.
He only ever liked 3 girls in his life: Dorothy at first sight, Amber because she made him feel better after being dumped *by* Dorothy, and Lucy over time after being encouraged *by* Dorothy.
He didn’t “swap” between Dorothy and Amber.
Dorothy dumped him, twice, then he, unexpectedly and unplanned, got with Amber on the rebound.
That ended, kinda, several times, then ended decisively at Halloween.
He did not get back with Dorothy right after that.
He didn’t get with anyone right after that.
He got with Lucy months later.
Where was the “swapping” between Dorothy and Amber his entire college life?
He spent about a month, maybe a month and a half with Dorothy, then about 2 weeks each with Amber (but only if you count the time between Mike’s death and Halloween) and Lucy.
He’s spent just as much time single as he has with anyone, let alone swapping between Dorothy and Amber.
Sal can be this bratty about Walky’s relationships because I suspect she is honestly just finding out about him backsliding with Dorothy right here and now.
Which I’m sure she’d have warned him off of if he’d asked, but she’s not wrong that you kinda need a score card for the guy.
She arrived late, meaning she didn’t see the confrontation between Lucy, Dorothy, and Walky, and realistically Sal was also there with her boyfriend and nearly had a fight with Asher. I think it is reasonable that she may not have noticed her brother sitting next to Dorothy in a crowded room, or also realistically, didn’t assume anything just because they were seated next to each other.
This is literally the only strip with all three actually in frame together during that party (other examples I saw were like one of the other’s elbow or hair and that having them tagged for the strip) and they aren’t even in the same personal space in this strip.
You’re right that she arrived later and might not have seen Walky and Dorothy together.
She still saw Walky and Dorothy together the next morning when they all walked to class together and Dorothy even sat in on class with them asking people if they needed help with their notes.
Joyce even says that everyone is with their significant other except Sal and Jennifer.
So yes, Sal might not have known at the party.
But also yes, she still knew they were back together in the days after the party.
The way Sal’s joke hit Walky makes me think Willis is gearing up to plunge him into Hell. The slow realization about how little his friends group cares about him is just the beginning.
It could be a character arch of him becoming able to stand up for himself. He’s met the first condition acknowledging he’s like his father in that he avoids confrontation and realizes it’s a problem. The way Dorothys treated him is the latest showing of why it comes back to bite him. He’s so laid back Dorothy doesn’t think she needs to rein Joyce in on being a jerk or that she needs to prioritize a real apology and it’s that added disrespect and disregard that in my opinion really rubs salt in the wound.
Yeah, there’s been a lot of analysis of Walky and Joyce’s relationship and whether they’re actually friends and Joyce thinks that teasing was in bounds or whether she really hates him because of how he treated her and so it’s acceptable, but most of that discussion ignores Dorothy’s role and how she just let it slide. Let Joyce break her up with Walky and laugh in his face and hasn’t seemed to give it a moment’s thought since.
I really try to bring that up often. That a lot of the anger at Joyce might be a bit displaced because it’s Dorothy that’s actually responsible for hurting Walky. She’s the one who cheated on him, she’s the one that allowed Joyce to break them up (Although I find readers are very self serving in what moments count as a joke and which are very serious and irredeemable actions), but it seems that because Dorothy at least feels guilty and Joyce has been acting overtly obnoxious Dorothy kind of skirts past the harsher critiques.
I feel like Dorothy is a woman with just as much agency as Joyce in their cheating. Just because they kissed doesn’t mean they had to start dating. They chose to and they each hold equal responsibilities to their former partners they hurt. Let Dorothy own that. Don’t just let Joyce take all the heat because she’s the most annoying. It feels like Jacob round 2.
They’re both in the wrong but Joyce is the one who thought “no hard feelings” after gloating about it was the right thing to say to him. Dorothy is avoiding this sort of situation, just like she avoided talking to Walky and Joyce about how they treated each other while she was dating Walky.
I’ve been kinda worried about him going down a shitty dude/incel arc given some of the plot threads I’ve noticed/maybe read too much into. Between Raidah wanting to use him for his connections and a potential dislike for Joyce, the weird look he gave during his fight with the Incellorator when Jocelyne was getting a tour, all of the comments from Dorothy (plus the cheating), and most of his life falling apart and minimal support from those around him, it seems like he’d be in prime position to fall down some sort of bad path.
Although I would like to see more drunk Jason/Walky shenanigans. One of the dynamics I miss the most from the Its Walky days
I can’t see it for Walky. I can’t see anyone who actually likes women as much as he seems to turning incel. He’s never treated any of his girlfriends (or girl friends) as nothing but sex objects. He was friends with Lucy for months without even considering asking her out – or feeling resentful that she was “friend zoning” him.
OTOH, I’ve been remarkably bad at predicting plot twists since this arc started, so who knows.
Maybe should have worded it better, not a full-blown incel but more of a “swayed by shitty people like Raidah” type arc where he winds up in a similar situation as Jennifer/Billie after Halloween and separates himself from everyone else?
I wouldn’t see him going down a “women are evil” type path, but was imagining more of a “the women I’ve cared about/put on a pedestal have either hurt me or mostly not cared when I’ve been hurt” type vibe and then associating with shitty people
Walky seemed to clock immediately how big of a loser Incelerator was so I wouldn’t be *too* worried about that. His general loneliness curdling into resentment is definitely on the table though. I could see him falling into the “I’m alone and there’s nothing I can do to change it” type of blackpill/incel circles if he doesn’t find a support system irl.
Yeah, I think I could have worded it better as well. Good call on the “black pill” (far too many of those pills to keep up with these days…)
The comic I was referencing I was always confused by, since it seemed like we were getting a quick moment of “Sad Walky-eyes” in the 4th panel when the Incelorator made a comment about women “not needing us”, I always took it for Walky (while not agreeing) was thinking about comments Dorothy has made that Walky interpreted in a more hurtful way?
Question: Why are Lucy, and Jacob waiting for Walky, Sal, Billie/Jennifer, and Joyce? Are they actually friends with any of those 4?
I don’t know if Jacob is friends with Walky, but I have a hard time seeing him being friends with Sal, Billie/Jennifer, and especially Joyce after the whole cheating thing.
As for Lucy, is Joyce her friend? Because Walky is her ex, Billie is just her roommate who has been less than kind in the recent past, and Sal is too cool for Lucy(only slightly joking.)
Jacob’s old friend group was when he was dating Raidah, and that group was essentially just people together who were using each other for connections and upwards academic/social movement. So I think he’s used to just being around his gf’s friends. If anything the thing that is bothering him the most is that he’s cold right now lol
Lucy and Jacob don’t have to wait for Jennifer, since they’re coming from the same room. We’ve seen both of them be at least cordial with Joyce since the timeskip, even if they aren’t close friends. Maybe Lucy just got in the routine of walking with this group when she was crushing on/dating Walky and she doesn’t want to change it.
Joyce is not a Bisexual Disaster, she’s just a disaster. To be a Bisexual Disaster, she needs a few hundred years, an affair with her mother and to create/adopt a vampire childe with her current failing relationship to keep the relationship going. You cannot be a Bisexual Disaster unless you can out Bisexual Disaster Lestat de Lioncourt.
I feel like being a Bisexual Disaster should not require Afro Samurai headband rules.
Though, if all the characters in the comic who want to vie for the title started dueling each other with swords like it’s Highlander, I’d be down.
It does bother me that Lucy is the only person dressed appropriately for the weather, but I don’t blame Willis for not wanting to bury his characters in winter clothes all the time.
Sorry honey, the coolness comes as a result of the self-scrutiny and examination of your own Deal, some degree of burning off caring how you’re perceived socially, and usually some wardrobe/self confidence work.
Also listening to the song Death by Glamor on a loop for like a year worked for me.
Well. That’s a major bummer. Of all people, I’d hoped Jacob would say something about the situation, specifically because he probably knows about Joe and he’s seen firsthand Joyce violating relationship boundaries and risking hurting people to get whatever she personally wants. If there was a time for that conversation, this felt like it.
Could happen later, I guess.
Also extremely disappointed in Sal. “You got cheated on? Suck it up and move on.” #1 Sister award for that one.
Sal is perhaps thinking, “It’ll take about an hour for Amber’s horny to outweigh her pain, and that’ll fix that.”
There isn’t too much the people here can say right here and now without it lightning rodding into nothing but hard feelings on either Joyce or Walky.
But they can see how those two are doing right now and think of what they might say to them personally later, it looks like Lucy is specifically not saying anything right now, and to be honest, regardless of what she thinks, why would she.
Jacob will probably be the last person to critic Joyce precisely because he cheated on his previous girlfriend and would probably think he has no place calling out Joyce on that. Even if it’s with Joyce precisely that he cheated his previous GF with.
On top of Jacob seeming to reconcile understanding Sara more onto to Ino reverse into a relationship with Lucy.
We actually never resolved that. Lucy herself questioned Jacob and he never answered—only retrospectively through a convo with…Ethan I think—realizing why Sara is the way she is and sorta annoyed with himself.
Damn. So Joyce is just going to keep getting progressively obnoxious, especially when not having Dorothy around as a filter/buffer for her tone deaf behavior
I mean, yes. To be honest this is the most she’s ever put her autistic traits on display. She’s hyperfixated and uninterested in any other conversation topic or how it impacts other people.
Joyce is about five minutes away from having someone go nuclear on her. People have been sporadically blowing up at her so far, and she hasn’t been taking the hints.
So I guess aside from Sarah and now Walky, nobody else really cares about Joyce’s shitty behavior towards everyone else lately? Joyce just gets to treat lots of other people around her like shit with no pushback or negative consequences at all?
To be fair, that whole Asma thing was retroactively inserted by the author (since the strips are written literally months in advance – this gives time for things to be edited/inserted… especially when IRL stuff happens)
As for everyone’s reaction to Joyce… this literally NOT news to anyone that has actually gotten to know her – at all. And her level of annoying is pretty on-par with many of her other neuroses/quirks. It’s still fresh for everyone, so I doubt there will be much pushback at all for now (since there wasn’t originally, until geo-political events IRL forced the author’s hand)… but if Joyce’s behavior doesn’t mellow out, then yeah, people will likely start calling her on her immaturity.
Right now, it’s mostly everyone else saying ‘congrats for finally realizing what we all already knew’. Hopefully once the new-ness of it wears off, Joyce will calm down a bit…. again, ‘hopefully’.
Who is “everyone else” here exactly? Like the only person i can say ahe acted actually shitty towards is Walky and perphaps Joe. With anyone else that might be affected by resent events luke Becky and Dina was completely accidental collateral damage. Otherwise she been, kinda cringy due to her euphoria about getting together with Dorothy. It fells like you are exaggerating just how many people has actually been affected in any way by Joyce behavior.
But you see, Joyce is so bad for spontaneously kissing Dorothy in a protest.
And then not doing anything with Dorothy after… till both couples had broken off.
And then she was funnily sibling rivalry mean to Walky… and then she got in front of her sister’s coming out (one she didn’t want to do yet) and then she…she… wait, I have it…
She did nothing literally wrong?
I dunno man.
Some commenters really need to hate Joyce for some reason. Many points have been because she is a “white bread idiot” (their words not mine) who was in a spot she shouldn’t have been or something… whatever.
I get the feeling Raidah correctly grilling her is going to be a theme that’s going to take a while to catch up to Joyce, and it’s probably going to be because we haven’t seen Joe since “we’ll talk, later” and I get the feeling she forgot all about him.
I see this storyline’s trend of “the best Walky can expect from anyone is being dismissed and ignored, but what he’s mostly going to get is shat on” continues.
Honestly that’s just the trend of the comic as a whole. Much like there are designated Hate Sink characters, Walky is a designated Punching Bag character. And much like those hate sinks, he’s just the right amount of obnoxious, toxic, sarcastic and without depth (at first glance) that it’s very easy to root for him being a punching bag that gets shit on for both audience amusement and others’ character development.
He makes loads of mistakes and is frequently punished for those mistakes by the inevitable consequences of his choices leading up to them (which is sort of the opposite situation of Joyce, who makes loads of mistakes but has her consequences build up like a jenga tower she doesn’t notice is there until it’s already fallen on top of her). And because of all that, he’s one of the comic’s biggest underdogs, and I’ve got my fingers crossed we get a powerful breaking point for him when he can’t keep pretending everything is fine and running away from/coping with his (many) problems by swimming in nuggets.
I think your comparison with Walky/Joyce is an interesting one.
Walky makes mistakes, often debatable how big of mistakes, but still mistakes. And the universe punishes him for it.
Joyce makes mistakes. And the universe just let’s her skate by with it.
Maybe you are right that Joyces mistakes are a Jenga tower that’s going to all topple at some point. But until thay happens it just feels like “the universe” likes one of them better than the other.
This friend group is coupled around existing relationships, roommate status, class association, and shared trauma. The two boys cheated on are alright guys working through their stuff and getting better, who half the group didn’t super like at one point or found kind of annoying at best. The other cheating half are two kind of annoying but mostly harmless girls who have been helpful or at least attempted kindness time and time again. No one has personally hurt each other to such a severe enough degree or violated boundaries to oust anyone from these groups it seems, whatever those boundaries are.
And I buy that! But not out of a “it’s not called smarting of age” thing or the reverse of “actually they’re all really mature” thing. It’s youthful apathy. These people aren’t great friends, hell I’m not even sure they’re good friends. But they have some sort of camaraderie, rely on each other’s company to some degree, and I think unless someone really blows up at the other, that’s not really gonna change.
Cause they’re Freshmen in college. And everyone actually meaningfully frustrated with Joyce and Dorothy are people are who openly had existing gripes with them or existing and extended empathy for Joe and Walky.
The problem is there’s a huge grey area between not caring at all and social ostracism. I had a friend in freshman year who cheated on his long distance gf. We didn’t kick him from the group but we gave a damn. We told him it was wrong and he should break up with her. And this was a gf we didn’t know at all, a total stranger. The apathy here is unrealistic.
People should care, maybe have a lower opinion of Joyce and Dorothy. This complete lack of caring is strange.
Also let’s be real this is a story taking the drama out of it for “realism” is silly (and this reaction isn’t realistic at all).
It’s really just the opposite of my experience — my college friend groups mostly pushed anyone who cheated (or did a couple other boneheaded moves) to the periphery pretty much instantly. Especially if they weren’t close but were just kinda part of the dorm clique — if this person is willing to lie to their bf/gf, what kind of bullshit will they feed the guy they walk to class with and play cards with of a Friday evening or whatever?
I think if Joyce or Dorothy had actually shown themselves willing to lie to their boyfriends, they’d be getting bigger negative repercussions.
We can argue over whether or not this cheating story has been lacking in the drama department, for sure, but I think “kissed and made out repeatedly while being too cowardly to break things off with their boyfriends for 24 hours” is just a slightly different animal that I wouldn’t, ultimately, expect to net them a ton of social consequences.
I think a lot of people’s hopes for consequences were also coalesced much earlier in the storyline, before the exact extent of Joyce’s cheating was revealed, before it turned out that those of us who thought Joe might have expected it were correct.
So I think some folks got their hearts set on this friend group dissolving in no small part because they’re comparing it in their heads to more intense situations — where Joyce did more than kiss Dorothy (repeatedly, but still) for less than 24 hours before coming clean, or Joe was shocked and devastated rather than putting a cheerful face on about the whole thing until Joyce had left the room.
I think friend groups DO break up over betrayal and hurt feelings all the time, but. Right now, I think the biggest in-universe criticisms for the characters are:
— Joyce was a butt to Walky when she broke up with him for Dorothy
— Joyce has left Joe hanging
— Joyce is being kind of an obnoxious baby gay
…and genuinely, I don’t think anyone here even knows about the first two things.
Huh guess that’s it then huh? Walky gets grouchy at Joyce for half a strip, then we return to our regularly scheduled program: “shat on the depressed guy and watch Joyce be obnoxious”
Rather than just copy and paste my response a couple strips ago I’m just gonna reiterate again that for Sal, she watched her brother spend the last week and a half apparently dosey-doing with three women in some capacity so her cracking a joke about him finding a new girl feels about right.
And in case you’re wondering what I mean about the three women thing…
Dating Lucy.
Bringing Amber to dinner with their parents as his fake girlfriend.
From Sal’s perspective, Walky literally went from still dating Lucy that morning, to bringing his ex to dinner with their parents and passing her off as his girlfriend, then in the next couple days his REAL girlfriend breaks up with him, then he gets back with his OTHER ex and that relationship breaks up within a few days as well. Even if bringing Amber was just a way to gotcha his parents, Sal didn’t know that here, and you gotta admit that 1) bringing your ex as your fake girlfriend is A Move (even Amber calls it out as a relationship trope thing, with Walky’s dad catching on that the two still obviously have feelings for each other) and 2) the fact that Lucy broke up with him pretty soon after also gives off an impression.
For as much as I don’t think Joyce is the villain a lot of people are making her out to be, I’m a little disappointed no one is calling her out for what an asshole she just was.
Can we talk about how rancid the vibes I’m getting from the bonus strip are?
I really, really hope I’m missing something with it.
Because what I’m getting from it is, “Joe is taking this breakup so badly he’s regressed to being an object instead of a character, and thus he has no more role in the story.”
A few months ago, I said (either here or on a discord thread about DoA- shoutout to DarkoNeko) that the part I was the most troubled by with the whole cheating business was how it was going to reduce Joe to merely being a stepping stone for Joyce’s growth- a way for Joyce to get some experience in romance before diving headlong into Dorothy’s thighs.
But we haven’t even gotten any of that. Her romance with Joe hasn’t mattered in the slightest to Joyce. She hasn’t changed one bit because she went out with him.
Which wouldn’t be the end of the world- Joe has obviously changed and grown a great deal on his end. His conversation with Rachel was a great example. There clearly are still some very interesting stories to be told about Joe’s growth, his relationship with masculinity and his processing trying to avoid being a cheater so hard only to end up getting cheated on.
But this bonus strip seems to be saying that we’re not going to get any of that. That Joe uas been reduced to an inanimate object now that his role in the story as Joyce’s boyfriend is over and Willis needed the vote to remind them he exists. Which is not only upsetting to me as someone who found Joe’s character arc to be one of the best-written parts of the comic but also really flies in the face of his last appearances, which seemed to be indicating that he’d still have a role in the comic, even if it didn’t involve interacting with Dorothy or Joyce.
I honestly try not to judge the patreon strip mainly because we’re just seeing the first panel here. I don’t have patreon, so I don’t know what happens in the rest of it, but it’s just as plausible that the joke is Danny goes on a monologue like “I know it must be hard for you, I saw in the newspaper that your girlfriend cheated on you with another girl, you must be so distraught and as your best friend I am here for you” and then the last panel reveal is that Joe is asleep with a handheld in his lap. And, obviously Joe is going to reappear in the comic. It’s not like this bonus strip is his last appearance and Joe will never show up again. I would save your ire and judgement for when that happens, even if it does end up being three months from now, because at least you’ll have a reason to be upset rather than being upset about the possibilities, if that makes sense?
Cool, I can’t exactly criticize or comment on something I cannot see. I still think Rogue’s concerns that Joe is an inanimate object and his last appearance in the comic is going to be that bonus strip are unfounded concerns. Unless you’re telling me that the bonus strip is the reveal that Joe died of a broken heart Padme style.
I’m certain it won’t be his last appearance. The object part… the strip does seem to just kind of make fun of people that are concerned for him and a method of laughing at his emotional state. But it’s also not part of the main strip so I’m not sure how seriously we should take it? Hopefully not very.
Have you thought, perhaps, that is just mean to be a joke ans it’s weird to make so many assumptions about Willis intentions out of it? This fella very melodramatic.
It’s not that I think Joe is never going to appear in the strip again. It’s that it looks like he’s only going to appear in the strip again as a punchline. And the fact that this is how Willis is *choosing* to depict a guy they used to write so well doesn’t exactly give me confidence he’ll ever be used well again.
There are preview panels showing him talking to Dina, twice, that don’t seem to be implying that his only reappearance from this point on is a punchline. The bonus strip is a punchline, but it’s also a bonus strip. If Willis decided to have an important plot point/development of Joe’s behind a paywall that’d such for readers. A joke strip behind a paywall, however, that’s fine.
I’ve only seen the one panel, Dina getting angry at Joe, which considering their low-key friendship *also* being a character beat I very much enjoyed, is concerning.
But I think my point is that I don’t know if Joe is going to get to *have* important plot points/develoments anymore. He hasn’t shown up at all today, and it’s become increasingly clear that Joyce is not going to be getting back to him. His role in Joyce’s story is done. Which seems to me to indicate that him having any sort of prominent role in the comic as a whole is done. He’s only good for jokes like this anymore.
I really don’t understand why that’s the conclusion you’re coming to about Joe’s character when there’s still at least three more currently written storylines ahead with who knows how many more to go, but I’m not going to try and change your mind when you’re pretty well set on this thought process. Best I can say is I hope you’re having a good day and god speed, yo.
It is a testament to the strength of the writing of previous strips that we care about Joe at all. He’s had more a traditional/transformative character arc than most players in the strip, and right now it feels as if that is being buried for a victory lap for someone who has acted counter to that journey. That’s why writers often show you a character who is about to have a bad turn come their way do something unlikeable, so that the reader feels comfortable enjoying the characters loss. But Joe? He worked hard to be a better person, overcome his limitations, and presented himself as genuinely thoughtful. Joe had an easy growth, as just being a regular person made him appear to have put in work.
Inversely, this has made Joyce look particularly self-centered and callous. And she is a character who continues to put a disproportionate emphasis on empathy.
So if you find the audience seeing Joe as the empathic one and Joyce as the callous one, you’ve either screwed up real bad… or done a very good job. It’s all in the payoff – or lack therof. Time will tell which it is.
“The audience” doesn’t feel that way, though. That the comments are currently being dominated by negativity does not mean the entire audience of the comic even feels negatively about it, much less that they’re all in agreement with your specific criticism.
That the comments suck to read and participate in right now is not the same thing as the comic itself having alienated all of its fans.
I certainly never said “the entire audience”. I also never said anything going on in the strip was negative or suggested people should feel negative about it. I basically said “The storyline has not played out yet – wait and see what happens before judging”.
“So if you find the audience seeing Joe as the empathic one and Joyce as the callous one, you’ve either screwed up real bad… or done a very good job.”
This whole line of reasoning is absolutely predicated on the idea that “the audience” unanimously sees Joe as “the empathetic one” and Joyce as “the callous one”. You then go on to say that whether this is good writing or bad writing is entirely dependent on whether or not that pays off.
I am just pushing back, as politely as I can, on the idea that you are describing the entire readership, rather than a specific segment of it, and on the idea that “the writing” must be bad if “the audience” (again, not the whole audience, but a specific segment of it) doesn’t get to experience payoff for a change they say they’ve noticed.
I think it’s pretty clear, in-universe- that we are meant to view Joe with empathy. His exchange with Rachel alone clearly positioned him as someone willing to learn and grow, and his thoughtfulness with Joyce was evident in his expressed behavior. Conversely, Joyce herself acknowledges that she has acted against her own moral view of self, and she reacted in the strip with a degree of guilt over this. This isn’t matter of inference, this even goes beyond implication. These roles are explicitly demonstrated and even highlighted. So I don’t think I’m going out on a huge limb with my reasoning here. Joe HAS acted with empathy in this relationship. Joyce has acted callously – as noted by outside observer Sarah.
If this has zero closure – which I personally doubt – than that is not likely to read well. It is a very well set up inversion of the two characters and how they have exchanged roles (to a certain degree). But like most stories (or character arcs within larger narratives) the quality should be measured in the closure – which has not yet been delivered.
Disagree or not, it’s really not relevant. The strip (via Sarah) has been pretty blatant on the fact that Joyce has acted in a manner that is callous and that Joe didn’t deserve to be cheated on. In real life there would be a ton of mitigating aspects and human nuance to accompany this all – but this is fiction, so it’s pretty simple.
The relevant part I suspect we agree on – it’s important to wait and see hw it all plays out rather that prejudge.
Look, I agree about not prejudging the story, but. Everything else, no. And my disagreement is relevant because you keep arguing that the strip is objectively saying or doing only one specific thing.
— I don’t think Joyce has been callous, nor do I agree that the strip is telling us she’s been callous, nor do I agree with you that Sarah was being Willis’s mouthpiece and trying to directly tell the readers how to feel. Fiction is not, in fact, necessarily that simple. And I’m pretty sure Willis has given up on any illusion of being able to control how we feel, though I’m certainly not expecting all of their readership to ever recognize that, heh.
— Cards on the table: what I think Joyce has been is THOUGHTLESS. I think she’s always underestimated how much she meant to Joe. She felt awful for cheating on him, but more in the vein of how that’s morally wrong than in the vein of how it might hurt him to be cheated on by specifically her. This is consistent with the rather abstract way she talked about it with Dorothy — saying that Joe had been trying so hard to be good for her puts the focus on the unfairness of cheating on him, rather than the pain it was going to cause him to be cheated on.
There’s a difference between this characterization and the one you’ve been assigning Joyce, and that difference is that I don’t think Joyce has suddenly stopped caring deeply about other people.
— Also, and this next bit is backed up by an ask Willis answered on their tumblr, Joyce really does truly believe what she’s been saying about Dorothy being her destiny. She really does believe they fell in love at first sight and that everything in her life has been leading to this moment. As Willis put it, she’s an atheist now, but she remains pretty thoroughly Calvinist, too.
— So, she’s just been overwhelmed. She didn’t mean to leave Joe hanging, and she definitely didn’t do it because she suddenly stopped caring about him.
Which, for my money, makes “callous” the wrong word.
…oh and I didn’t say anything about Joe deserving to be cheated on. I don’t know where you got that idea, because I keep saying I think he’s ALSO sympathetic. I just don’t think he has a monopoly on that, or on being empathetic.
Thoughtless or callous, I think it’s just a matter of semantics at this point. We seem to be saying the same things – albeit with slightly different words. Is Sarah Willis’ mouthpiece? Every character is. But it’s not really relevant, as again we do seem to be saying the same things. You’re taking aspects of what I said to an extreme not intended.
But to clarify – please keep in mind the context here. I’m not arguing against you, I’m arguing about fictional characterization. So if I say something about Joe not deserving being cheated on, I’m speaking about the in-universe reality at play here from the perspective of the fictional characters as we may or may not interpret it. I meant nothing at all about your personal beliefs or opinions of what is okay or not okay – that’s certainly not my business one way or the other.
Well, it’s silly to tell me that Joe didn’t deserve to get cheated on if you don’t think that’s something I was arguing…?
Thoughtless = not realizing she’s hurting Joe. Consistent with previous characterization of Joyce as a deeply empathetic person who nevertheless has blind spots and a tendency to fixate on things.
Callous = not CARING that she’s hurting Joe. Inconsistent with previous characterization.
Anyway I hope the issue I’ve taken with your point is now clear. If not, I’m not sure what more I can do, but this is also several days back now so this is just the last day I’m gonna check back, FYI. Have a good one either way, and I hope you find the story rewarding, whichever of us turns out to have been correct about Willis’s intent and therefore the direction this is going in, if either of us.
You know, it’s really sad that we can always count on you to defend Willis’s writing even more than the person themself does. That the moment someone expresses that they think the way the comic is being written is not to their taste, there’s you with the “but have you considered you’re wrong?”
I mean you are not really saying it’s not to your taste, you just saying you think it’s bad, for reasons that i don’t agree with. You seem to have an issue with anyone who don’t automatically agree with your criticism. So i guess two sides of a same coin here 🤷. I will continue to enjoy what i enjoy and saying so, and tell me i don’t agree with so (when i fell like it) and if that’s sad to you, i guess that’s how it is.
Yeah, such a shame that there are people in the comments for Willis’s comic who’ve been reading and enjoying Willis’s comics for years who give Willis the benefit of the doubt about where they’re going with a story or a character instead of just assuming on the basis of nothing whatsoever that everything that Willis writes is now shit and they’re just throwing away all the story and character development they’ve built up over the last fifteen years, and starting up a daily Two Minute Hate every time the main character appears. Clearly nadamás is the one who’s the problem here.
“To defend Willis even more than the person themself does” would probably land harder if you weren’t talking about someone who’s famously slow to defend themself and who keeps coming on here to manually restore a thread that’s dedicated to being negative about his current OTP.
Like. What else are you gonna sling at Namadás? Is he perhaps dryer than water? Colder than the equator?
Zero Body fat isnt a thing.
You could not stay alive that way. Several metabolic processes need fatty tissue.
Even very, very, very unhealthily skinny people like cancer survivors, end-stage opiate addicts or models still retain 10-15%.
Jacob is either being intentionally hyperbolic here, or has been misinformed by the bodybuilding-manosphere. Those bubbles believe some weird stuff.
What about my post made you believe I consider low body fat a superpower?
I know its a state of malnourishment. Which causes a multitude of afflictions.
Only indoctrinated morons without any knowledge of physiology think a body-fat-content below 25-30% is anything but a detriment.
If you truly are at 20%? You should visit a doctor for that and take care to change it, its not healthy to live like that.
as someone with a lot of belly fat i’d say it wouldn’t necessarily protect me from the cold/i dont think i’ve seen anyone ‘obese/ chubby’ need less layers other than ppl who don’t get cold as easily/wear sandals all year no matter how cold. but other than adding protein powder and measuring weight occasionally idk how many guys bother calculating body fat
love teh humble brag from jacob, but even with the muscles and working out i’d think he’d still have some body fat being that stout? versus just a full on bodybuilder type but it’s not like i’ve ogled 18-20 year old muscly guys (but that said i’d assume they’d use it as an excuse for him and lucy to cuddle closer)
Question for the author: I know Jacob must be bad at math since he claimed Sal is seventy-five percent hair. But is Jacob right that he has zero body fat?
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Sorry, Joyce, I know it feels like all gay people are cool when you’re looking in from outside, but once you’re inside, you realize that being gay doesn’t actually make you any cooler.
Also, are you identifying as gay or not? You’re confusing me here.
I don’t think she knows either
It’s a switch that flips every five seconds
Oh, i don’t think she’s a switch— *ba dum tsssh*
This humor is top form.
Even Ebert wouldn’t pan these jokes.
I don’t think Joyce has made a considered decision that wasn’t just the first thought that came into her head for the past few days.
Which I feel is going to be the exact point of this story arc.
Pretty sure she currently identifies as gay despite being attracted to men, because hasn’t yet internalized all the stuff she learned from gender studies.
In fairness, I think people only attend that class because it’s a good place for drama to happen and Leslie is an excellent substitute mom.
Everyone’s going to be real weirded out when they get handed the exam and it turns out they were supposed to be learning this whole time.
Except Joyce and Dorothy took that class last semester and passed. They’re not taking it this semester.
good old bi panic; the eternal struggle of not knowing how much or little you feel about the opposite and same sex, and the indecision of whether you are or are not just gay.
She may have been exposed to lots judgmental adults commentating on people around them that “oh remember so-and-so’s daughter who tried to tell us all she was lesbian? Well guess what, she’s dating a man now!” “Ha! Didn’t I tell you that hussy was just making it all up for attention?” “You sure did Beatrice! And didn’t I tell you that’s what happens when you let don’t raise your kids right? That family is just no good” [etc]. That’s probably highly internalized to her view on what is “required” to “count” as bi (also apparently a word she has not internalized yet).
yup; she’s internalized a lot of shame from that, and it’s not easy to unlearn that kind of mentality. Even if she’s going through a sapphic euphoria, she’s trying hard to view actual gay people as being above jer, because she’s trying hard to not be compared.
But also as she said yesterday, because gay people (Becky) are heroic inspirational warriors (Becky) and she hasn’t really had to fight to be allowed to be gay, so she hasn’t earned that status.
yup yup; Joyce subconsciously also probably rejected her previous attempts at defending herself from Raidah as well. She got all of one person willing to use bigotry against her as a get back tool, but her coming out has been met with a “well no shit” lol
That “I deserve a medal” to Raidah almost certainly led to the “stolen valor” thought a few strips ago.
That doesn’t really seem to fit with what we’ve seen of her church’s approach to LGBTQ issues. More that it all gets lumped together as sin under “the gay” umbrella. They don’t accept sexual orientation as a thing, it’s just a perversion.
Sure but church members don’t necessarily hold themselves to high standards when gossipping about people. That whole hypothetical convo may be just trampling the fact that it’s supposed to be entirely moot to them, but that wouldn’t stop them from doing it because their religion is just about who they get to feel better than (parapgrasong becky’s words). I bet she heard similar from homeschool group kids as well, who are maybe ulating parents with a less strict bubble than Joyce’s. Her mom also watched the conservative propafanda delivery systems, I don’t put auch behavior past them.
To be fair, many straight people probably think this way in part due to decades of gay rights activism that championed a “we can’t help it” message as the crux of the argument for accepting same sex relationships. I have literally seen campaign footage and heard arguments from people saying that they basically wouldn’t be gay if they could help it but a same sex relationship is the only way for them to be happy. While this certainly seems true for some Kinsey 6s, it is not an argument that helps bisexual people or advances acceptance of all us having freedom to form relationships with whoever we consent to. I personally had family members who were sold on such arguments but wouldn’t accept my bisexuality. I find it important to recognize that such sound bites often come from LGBT people themselves. My own gay uncle called bisexual people “fence sitters.”
i mean gay is an umbrella term i dont know if she knows this but bisexual people are gay broadly
Gay Broadly: Bisexual Detective
I’d watch that movie.
Now I want that to be a webcomic.
The sequel to Joyce Brown: Lesbian Love Sleuth
I’m old enough to remember when gay meant “male homosexual”, so neither lesbians nor bisexuals were gay…
(I’m not old enough to remember when gay meant “merry”.)
That’s actually why L and G are separate letters in “LGBT” through “QUILTBAG”.
…and B, too…
I was today years old when I learned QUILTBAG was a thing.
That’s pretty old. 🙂
Though it was a gradual transition and probably a regional one as well.
But she’s also talked about how she’s not genuinely gay, but only technically gay because of Dorothy. Which sounds more like a “straight with an exception” claim. Or even Jennifer’s “straight but it’s okay with your best friend”.
Suffice to say, she’s confused.
Also interestingly, I think she’s used “gay”, but not “lesbian”.
Sorta like how I think on paper smoking cigarettes is really cool but a lotta people who smoke are actually lame as fuck and also it smells bad.
SMOKING PAPER GET IT ar ar ar ar ar ar
Seriously tho’ I think it used to look cool because movies made it look cool because it gave actors something to do with their hands and most actors like, professionally, make things look cool and damn, they’re good at it.
Do you think a lot of smokers who happen to be lame are simply representatives of humanity as a whole and that the stereotype of smoking/smokers being cool highlights their lameness?
Or
Do you think a large number of smokers who are lame took up smoking because they hoped they would become cool by doing so?
I know I fall into the first group. I started smoking cigarettes to handle giving up weed instead of to try, and be cool.
I mean smoking tobacco does lower body temperature, so it makes you cool in a quite literal sense
I can confirm this; I used to smoke cigarettes, and I’m lame.
Don’t give up. Someday you will walk again.
I grew up in a smoking household, and am the only one of my family who never picked up the habit at any point. Quite the contrary: I have an aversion to handling tobacco products or trash, like butts or filters, as if they were poop – never bare-handed, always tissue or gloves.
If only gayness granted immunity to cringe, Joyce. If only.
All gay trans people /are/ cool, however.
I think perhaps Sal needs to be apprised of some pertinent context to this particular breakup that she seems to be unaware of.
Or she continue her good fortune in not knowing. All our lives out here in this comment section are worse for knowing all the details.
If my sibling was cheated on, I’d want to know!
Same. Especially if I was talking to the ex pretty regularly.
If mine was I’d personally not give a damn but my sibling sucks donkey butt-
I counter question this by asking does Walky want her to know? Getting cheated on can be considered embarrassing by some. Maybe it’s just me but I always default to minding my own business with other’s romantic relationships until they tell me. I kinda think Walky feels bad enough without telling his sister his love failures so he’s keeping it relatively cool or as cool as one can be with Joyce rubbing it in his face.
I’m not entirely sure Walky knows.
I know you don’t always intend to come across as impolite but you do here.
My responding to an obvious joke with an also obvious joke?
Jokes can be rude.
If sirksome says i am being rude on their comment i apologize, but i don’t really trust your judgement of it.
Meh. I try my best not to take anything personally in these psuedo-anonymous conversation forums. Especially since tone is hard to convey in text and at least in my experience folks are quick to take insult. Best to try and take most comments in the benefit of doubt with sincerity and politeness. In the spirit of that I do humbly apologize to Dot for mucking up her thread with nonsense.
My feelings aren’t hurt if that brings comfort to anyone.
Thanks you. No need to apologize, was just a misunderstanding.
You made a flippant ”get gud” joke regarding being cheated on by one’s partner, after Dot had just said she finds cheating hurtful and serious.
If you can’t work out the problem from there, I don’t think I can help you.
1. I was responding to sirksome tounge in cheek comment, not to Dots comment, which doesn’t factor in at all in what i said.
2. Dot didn’t even say anything like that in their original comment? They might have said that in some other comment i don’t know about, i wouldn’t know, and if they did, it still wouldn’t matter because my comment doesn’t say anything about the cheating? Just the general situation of the current plotline.
I think you just dont like the person and youre trying to use this as an excuse. The joke wasnt even aimed at you.
Apparently neither of the involved parties agrees with you. This is why I try not to get offended on anyone else’s behalf.
“y’all” is aimed at everyone.
Because Sirksome referred to everyone in “all our lives”. So my joke was responding to that nebulous “all”.
It’s a good thing Sal didn’t meet Joyce and Dorothy outside the building smooching while she was going to rescue Amber.
Neither “joke” is obvious to me. At all.
Seriously, this is the internet. You’re writing, not speaking, so we can’t hear your tone of voice, for example. Also, Poe’s law: it is impossible to create a parody that nobody will mistake for the real thing.
Yes i am aware of that, i am autistic I often have that problem, i could had phrased that better (the “obvious joke” comment not the original one, i still say there isn’t anything wrong with that). And i really cannot do anything if someone will inevitable mix up a joke for a real opinion.
You know what if anyone read this, just report my comment and dlete this whole stupid thrend.
I think the comic is just going to ignore that.
she might find it funnier if she found out; let’s hope so!
I don’t think she’d find it funny, personally.
She seems very strongly not caring, which is not a good look for her.
Every look is a good look for Sal.
Sal lkinda might view Walky as a bit of a fuckboy, from her perspective he’s been in 3 relationships within the span of a month or so lol
I think she’s assuming the damage will be minimal. It’s a rebound relationship that crashed and burned in like, what, four days?
And her time estimate may not be that wrong.
Less than 24 hours-
Sal might be applying her own coping mechanisms, somewhat. She’d likely take a similarly dismissive attitude towards her own exes. If you aren’t that invested emotionally, they can’t hurt you.
Indeed.
The context was on the front page of the college newspaper, therefore Sal almost for sure already knows. She doesn’t care.
1) Sal’s too cool for school papers.
2) That doesn’t mean she knows the timeline. She knows Dorothy dumped Walky for Joyce. She doesn’t know when that happened compared to the Kiss (or them making out, which she saw on the way home.)
I don’t know how much good it’ll do when or if Sal knows the timeline. Once she had sufficient evidence, Billie wasn’t exactly chomping at the bit to pick Walky’s pieces up. More obligation than anything.
Don’t trust body fat.
sometimes it just walks away!
but we are a class 5 protected planet! quick, call the doctor!
Jacob humbly bragging about his body lol
We’ve all seen Jacob shirtless. You have body fat bro. Them tiddies only come from having huge pecs and some good body fat on top. Less than most people tho probably
as someone with little to no body fat whose freezing rn, I’ll say,
MOOD X~X
✊
turns out gay is only the first step in the tech tree and now you have to learn iron smelting
I specc’d badly and forgot agriculture. My family is starving.
When I first played civ I as a 10 yo I didn’t know you could build farms so only one of my cities even hit double digit pop. Learning that I could do that was a revelation lol
Now I am remembering “Clan Of The Cave Bear” where the tech tree starts with “Where Do Babies Come From?”
As a Repressed Teen, I read sections of Clan of the Cave Bear, a book rumors held was Sexy, when it was briefly available at a friend of my parent’s house as a source to try to grasp How Sex Works (TM).
It … didn’t really help.
The sex gets much better in book 2, “The Valley Of Horses.”
well, where do horses come from?
The Valley. It’s in the title, Ray.
Yah Ray
What about ceremonial burial?
Or bronze working?
or, hell, alteration or restoration magics maybe
Even prestidigitation would be very useful for them, yes..
That explains why I’ve known so many lesbian blacksmiths.
Granted, bisexual disasterness is what makes Jennifer “cool.”
Also, Exhibit A of how Joyce isn’t even remotely “only gay for Dorothy.”
(Exhibit B will be allowed to finish her cigarette.)
She hasn’t shown herself as secretly gay for Lucy yet, but I won’t rest until she’s expressed completely oblivious attraction for every character in this strip.
I though Sal was Exhibit A.
Oh no. Sal is Exhibit C at the very least.
….
… yes, I’ll see myself out.
Everyone knows what make Jennifer cool is that she was once a head cheerleader.
I think if you study this chart you will understand that Jennifer being a bisexual disaster is inextricable from her status as a cheerleader.
Thank you Faz, er, Rosicrucian.
Also “fierce” is somewhat outdated gay slang, where’s Joyce pick that one up
Dorothy googled her a list and made a spreadsheet.
It is increasingly likely that this is the correct answer.
I really want this to be true.
The lifetime of gay slang:
– black (potentially trans) women and/or black drag queens make it up
– white gay men pick it up and use it so much people think they started it
– straight white women pick it up. Straight white men use it “ironically”
– everyone is using it
– corporations start using it in ads
– popularity starts falling off
– Dorothy Keener in Indiana discovers it and passes it on to her gf
THE CIRRRRRRCLE OF LIIIIIIIIIIIFE
Girl’s only just learned how to cuss; I imagine she’s still working with outdated lingo for gayness as well.
Webcomic time is a pathway to many cultural touchstones that some consider to be unnatural
Cultural touchstones are unnatural by their very nature.
They don’t grow on trees, you know.
So Jacob really is all muscle?
Lucy’s a lucky lady. Or u lucky if you prefer your fellas with some squish.
It’s like dating a Peloton.
even being bi; I’ve never understood the “no body fat” thing. Like, a fit man or woman still has to have some softness and curves, I don’t want to hug a rock.
It’s definitely one of those aesthetics that seemingly mostly cis men think LOOKS good. It does also seem that a lot more folks like to LOOK at that aesthetic compared to the number of folks who’d want it to be actualized in someone they actually had to cuddle with.
I think its that usual “this is what fit people are supposed to look like”, when actual fit people can some fat on the bone, and real muscle men and women are built out like barrels rather than the show muscle types.
Sal’s pretty mean for saying it, but yeah – I wouldn’t be surprised if Walky has another gf by the end of the day. I would prefer he didn’t, but . . .
I think it’d be funny if he stumbled into a situationship with the most off-the-wall choices possible.
Walky and *spins a randomized wheel*….Ruth, why not
“Ruth didn’t babysit them in this universe so this is fine actually” has been thoroughly tested.
Ruth would never date a guy like Walky; she wants Billie/Jennifer, and excluding her Ruth likes her boys English, and easily handcuffed.
I don’t think Ruth likes Jason at all, which is why I love them as a couple so much. 100% apathy on both sides, glued together by the plot and a single spec of pollen. I know I always complained about Lucy and Walky having zero chemistry, but Ruth and Jason genuinely have no chemistry, but they have so much “no chemistry” that it somehow becomes amusing anyways. They appear once every few hundred strips to be awkward as hell and then disappear, it’s wonderful.
If I didn’t like Billie/Ruth and Walky/Amber so much, I would hope for Billie/Walky.
ok but hear me out
Walky and Sierra and Mandy and Grace
I’m so conflicted cuz I want Walky and Amber to reconnect and start dating EXPEDITIOUSLY but I also don’t for both character and narrative reasons. If time was allowed to pass so that he has weeks or even months to proccess these things it’d be one thing but because we’re stuck in each day for weeks if he doesn’t have remarkably short rebound windows he’ll basically spend the entire rest of the comic single.
I’m kind of okay with that. Not every character has to ultimately end up with someone. Maybe we get a Walky who in the end of things seems like he’ll inevitably patch things up with Amber or there’s a promise of sometime in the future but for now he just embraces the solitude.
But I want Walky/Amber noooow!
I feel you Yotomoe. I know it would probably be better for Walky to remain single for at least a few days bare minimum, but I want my beautiful Walber/Amky/(?) ASAP.
No Walky and Amber until you eat all your Joyce and Dorothy first!
My other dad doesn’t make me have Joyce and Dorothy!! I’m running away!! I hate this family!!
NO ONE IS GETTING UP FROM THIS TABLE UNTIL YOU ALL EAT YOUR DOROTHY AND JOYCE! YOU UNRULY ASS KIDS WILL FINISH ALL THE DOOMSPIRAL YURI ON YOUR PLATES!
But Joyce and Dorothy already ate all the Dorothy and Joyce.
Sirksome is a harsh taskmaster. Grimeyville skips straight to child abuse.
Or elder abuse in my case.
Yotomoe, I’m with you on this one.
Ass kids? …Oh. Unruly-ass kids. Gotcha.
Why doesn’t Joe, the biggest character, simply eat Joyce and Dorothy?
I think he’d love to tbh.
The lesson I think Dorothy/Joyce is teaching me is that sometimes it’s better to wait.
It feels more “big sister teasing” mean than actually cruel.
Like, its bullying, but its the sort of bullying one can take from a loved family member, ya know?
can we get a walky dating a guy arc
Perhaps after Dumbing of Age winds down, all the characters will become pirates in a new webcomic called Bums and Rums, and Walky the Plank will start dating guys then.
this comment gets better every single word
Ethan and Asher as the bread for a Walky sandwich
Make it really weird and throw in Amber to write fanfics in about it, and occasionally participate when she feels like it.
Chant with me now!
POLY-CULE! POLY-CULE! POLY-CULE!
…Amber having all her trauma and longing in one tight assed, triple-double cheeked, yaoi and yaoi-curious man package. Ethan for the friendship, Asher for the hate-fucking Mike provided in another universe for her, and Walky for the companionship and gaming.
…POLY-CULE! POLY-CULE!
Also Joe is there because he deserves a polycule that loves him.
He and Joe will try stuff
Roommate.
what cigarettes *does* sal smoke
She doesn’t, she just put them in her mouth.
She does.
Joyce used the smoke to stay warm when her period was driving her crazy.
I think she’s a Marlboro girl
I feel like Willis knows, but can’t say for fear of inspiring easily influenced people to smoke.
I’d still smoke if I was allowed to, but I recognize that I shouldn’t, and shouldn’t start again.
I would be very surprised if it’s a real cigarette brand.
It never occurred to me that Willis could just make up a fake brand of cigarettes to avoid directly naming any real brand.
Next it’ll be countries and tortilla chips!
Fake tortilla chips is going too far.
Let’s stick with nachitos and other such real countries.
Dumbing of Age joins the Morleyverse!
Joyce this week has really fulfilled her “Pathetic Girl Failure Top” title and I am here for it.
I will always be here for it.
Sometimes i wonder if it’s confusing for people that Joyce being a cringy jackass actually make me like her moee. I think it makes her very entertaining.
I mean, Joyce figuring something out about herself and promptly making it everyone else’s problem is a pattern by now.
Imagine how terrifying it’ll be when she figures out that she’s making her realizations other people’s problem? She’ll simultaneously learn something, and somehow have to ignore that information to make it a problem.
i always knew deep down that the endgame was joyce collapsing into a singularity
As foretold by Walky.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-9-comic/04-vote-for-robin/proselytize/
he’s more clever than he gets credit for
Well, I certainly find her relatable!
Totally unrelated to the comic itself, but I found myself in a room with people who give a shit about football and I understand Indiana just did the impossible or something?
Replying to find out the answer to this; I could just look it up, but where is the fun in that?
Yeah it was pretty weird when the one team’s linebacker literally turned into an eagle and carried the ball away. Broke, like, three regulations or something idk sports.
They won the Big 10 conference title for the first time in 80 years and will likely have the #1 seed in the upcoming college football playoffs. Even more impressive seeing as how they were one of the conference tomato cans just a couple of years ago.
My apologies if your eyes glazed over after “Big 10.”
You had me until you said “conference tomato cans”; what the hell does that mean?
A tomato can is an opponent who’s easy to beat. They’re like a can that just sits there leaking juice when you hit it
Ah, thank you for the explanation.
Wikipedia explains it.
Too late Dean hooked me up with the answer.
The impossible? What, did they make football interesting? Way to go, Tony!
Ehh, I wouldn’t go that far
What football teams are still battling it out? I thought Trump got a metal for bringing peace to football, or something like that.
That’s football, not handegg.
that’s the other type of football
Anyway my wild guess for Walky’s new girlfriend that he will somehow have by the end of the storyline is Jocelyne. Dating the virtually-identical-looking sister of the girl that just swiped his girlfriend sounds like a recipe for drama and/or hijinx.
Danny currently in his engaged to Sal arc around this time:
Ha! Now you know what it’s like!
Engaged? Did one of them propose while I wasn’t looking? I’m not opposed to this mind you; I just didn’t know.
No, no, not at all. I was just throwing out a hypothetical that Sal and Danny might go the distance and be engaged by the epilogue/end of the comic.
Assuming the epilogue is graduation.
I hope they end up together since they are my favorite couple in the whole comic.
You stole my girlfriend, prepare to be my sister in law.
I wonder if Joyce loves dotty more than she’d hate the constant “heyyy sis” jokes (she does). It’d make sal her sister in law too so hey maybe she’d encourage it for exclusively that reason
Congrats to Tony. All that hard work paid off.
Sorry, Joyce, no “Sasha Fierce” moniker for you! Would you like to try for “Jazzy Joyce”?
Sorry Joyce, it’s actually a module that you need to install and it’s only available if you’ve moved to a unix-based internal system. If you never bothered to move away from an NT Kernel you can’t get the coolness update
Thanks for making the joke that first occurred to me but I wasn’t up to formulating.
NT kernels are by definition uncool.
It really is VMS: The Next Generation, innit. A lot of legitimately good ideas but so much just
yeah
Well, she definitely has an ND kernel
I think I’ve reached a point of just… Constant sadness when it comes to Walky? Can he get just one win? Please? Can one single character be genuinely kind to him without talking down to him or hitting him?
Hopefully Amber will be that for him in the near future. I’m still holding out hope for Walber(?) Ambky(?); still not sure about that one.
More people in comic definately need to worry about walky more; this guy is NOT okay
People are worried about Becky and I feel like they should be worried about Walky.
Boy’s a red flag right now that nobody takes seriously.
For REAL
As I had stated previously on the patreon, we’re going to get a situation where Walky either crashes out via self-harm, rage, depression, isolation, or something so jarring that everyone else in the cast will be like
“WALKY DID WHAT? IMPOSSIBLE! WHO COULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING!?”
Yeah, I’ve been worried about Walky for a fair bit. It really doesn’t feel like he’s really addressed a lot of stuff that happened just before the time skip, just coasting along because he doesn’t want to lose the image of being cool.
Becky’s probably the more urgent risk, but yeah, Walky’s not far behind.
Now, I realize what I’m about to point out is very much “Oops, All Red Flags.”
But Walky would very much like you not to take him seriously. He would like nothing more than if everyone would not take him seriously.
Because if they took him seriously, he would have to take himself seriously.
That way lies madness.
I think Becky is showing way more signs of danger and depression. That’s why I worry about her more, even if I believe Walky has more reason to be upset. He’s out there, he’s going to class, still interacting with his “friends” had people to talk to about it. Becky spent the last several hours alone in her room dooming and staring at who knows what on her phone. The first thing she’s really said was basically “It sucks to be me. I couldn’t hack it.” I think it’s clear they’re in different places mentally.
I will say, when I was at my personal ‘dire lowest point’, I was still acting closer to Walky than to Becky.
So I might be projecting some.
I mean there is reason to worry. Sarah has personal experience rooming with someone who was good at faking they were okay around their friends. I just think Walky has had opportunity to privately crash that he hasn’t done. That’s a better sign to me at least.
Fair play
He rooms with someone who would poke and needle him if he wanted to just hide from the world, like this morning. He doesn’t get a lot of private crash out time.
They’ve both put quite a bit of effort into that.
Not being taken seriously, I mean.
This may be controversial but Walky and Becky should hang out and play video games and tell fart jokes. There, I said it.
I’ve thought that Walky and Becky should be friends since Joyce & Walky. So like…before DOA even!
Well, shit, I’m embarrassed for not remembering J&W Becky super well. Have not binged that archive enough times I guess. But, yes, I friend-ship them.
I feel like in universe it’s because Walky is better at the mask than Becky is. Also Becky very publicly went through some insane shit so that’s more at the forefront of people’s minds. Walky’s good at keeping people at an arms length and performing the whole “I refuse to be traumatized by this” schtick. I agree that people should absolutely think about it more and worry about him but boy is good at what he does ig.
Will say, and i know you dont like them, but that is what booster was doing. They were trying to get him out of bed to keep him from wallowing, reach out to someone who can comfort him and let him know why she’s being so cagey so he can try and dismantle that, help make sure his grades don’t slip. You can disagree with their methods, you can hate them, but that was ultimately their intent.
I don’t know. Becky’s pretty good at the mask canonically. It’s only the really insane stuff that breaks it. And a few times privately.
Next up, he loses Artax.
:grabs tissues:
Joe in the latest Patreon strip, looking down from the door to his lap:
“They look like big, good, strong hands, don’t they?”
I’ll never not be here for the neverending story references.
I’m legit waiting for the strip where he punches his own ticket.
Well, as Sal said, he’ll have a new girlfriend within an hour.
If so, at this point it’ll be Raidah, the only person in the entire cast who will even PRETEND to give a single solitary shit about him. For that exact reason: she’s willing to act like he has feelings that can be hurt.
Of course it would entirely be pretend, which she’d reveal to the audience after some people got attached to the pairing.
Whatever happened to that plotline anyway?
Walky seems to be the universe’s punching bag, unfortunately.
I think part of it is that he kinda treats himself as a punching bag, so he just accepts it. Part of it is that we never really get anything in the narrative that challenges that…
With the Lucy arc we get:
Lucy: “Fuck you! I deserve better than you!”
Walky: “Yeah, that sounds right. I suck”
and that’s where we stop. In the comic we are never given anything to challenge Lucy’s rationalization that it was Walky’s fault and he messed up.
Because he did mess up and Lucy does deserve better.
I don’t even necessarily disagree, but the comic hasn’t done anything with that.
The ‘anything’ was the breakup. That’s the consequences. Also, Walky pingponged right to Dorothy only to be hurt, so clearly there’s something ramping up for him when it comes to how he goes about his relationships.
So he messed up…and yet the only thing he changed about his behavior was going “racistmomsayswhat” and then went right back to his usual ways. And it sure looks like he’s not going to have to change all that much to get back with Amber.
I generally agree that there were a lot of ways that Walky *was* being unfair to Lucy, but the problem is that the narrative completely dropped them in order to put Walky in the situation he’s in now. There wasn’t any followthrough. And the cause of Walky’s pain now is not because he’s done *anything* wrong by Dorothy. We can’t get into a narrative of “Walky is a kind of crappy boyfriend and learns to be better” because that’s not what happened. Instead what happened was “Dorothy used Walky and threw him away when she got what she really wanted”.
The two narratives are simply incompatible.
It’s not really clear to me what you think he messed up that he could have changed. What usual ways did he go back to that he shouldn’t have? Other than possibly Dorothy.
— And comments like this are why it is bad that the comic never addressed the issue.
No. Walky didn’t mess up.
Lucy is free to break up with anyone for any reason, but just because she doesn’t want to date Walky doesn’t make that “Walky’s fault”.
Walky did what was reasonable to shield Lucy from his parents. He told her what Linda was like. He encouraged her to just avoid his parents. He never expected or asked her to come along.
That was all Lucy. Lucy was the one who decided it was imperative that she make Linda love her. But, suprise suprise, the person Walky said was racist was in fact racist.
And that isn’t something Lucy can change, and it isn’t something Walky can change.
“Walky didn’t do enough to stand up to his parents and defend Lucy”.
Nonsense. At the start when Linda was being rude by completely looking over Lucy, Walky immediately corrected her.
After that Linda wasn’t actually going after Lucy. She was going after Walky. She was making snide comments about how Walky wasn’t doing good enough. And if asked to explain she obviously wasn’t going to say “he can do better than Lucy”, she would say “he can do better than failing his classes and drawing cartoons”.
What Walky can do to protect Lucy is to not force her to interact with his parents. And he did that. Lucy choosing to ignore his advice is on her.
And if you look at the breakup scene you can actually tell that Lucy is just looking for reasons to blame Walky.
Was it because Walky doesn’t love her? No. They’d already talked about that and resolved it.
Was it because of his Parents? No, again they’d already discussed that issue.
The thing that got her pissy was that Walky wasn’t at all into her culty religion.
When Linda insulted Amber near Walky, Walky stood up for Amber: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-13/04-but-dont-give-yourself-away/unimpressive/
When Linda insulted Lucy near Walky, he stayed quiet: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-14/01-everybodys-looking-for-nothing/raised-2/
For me, that says all that’s really needed to say. She is literally saying that by being with Lucy, Walky is ‘slumming it’. Especially since, in Linda’s eyes, Lucy is the one encouraging Walky to ‘slum it’ by drawing cartoons.
Except Linda didn’t insult Lucy. She insulted Walky.
She did not, in fact, say “You’re slumming it by being with Lucy” she just said “You’re slumming it”.
How should Walky have defended Lucy in that situation? Say “hey, I’m not Slumming it by being with Lucy. Lucy is great”?
That does nothing because Linda would just point to drawing comics and failing classes as the reason Walky is slumming it.
—
Bottom line Walky is not responsible for his mother’s behavior, and he cannot force her to change. He doesn’t have that power.
What he can do is shield Lucy by not forcing her to deal with his mother. And that is exactly what he offered.
What a productive conversation! I love it! Fantastic! Wonderful! Completely correct! I am a mere bug before your wisdom! Fuck me five ways to hell I suppose! I’ll go fuck myself! Maybe then you’ll be satisfied! Hooray!!!!!!!!!
I’d say one of the big differences between the situation with defending Lucy and defending Amber is that defending Lucy required diving straight into the “Mom you’re racist” thing, which is a far more fraught conversation than whether Amber’s a rambly nothing or not.
And while the “slumming it” clearly had that racist intent and impact, it wasn’t explicit and the conversation leading up to it was focused on Walky’s school choices and the webcomic, so claiming it wasn’t racist or directed at Lucy would have been easy and hard to argue with.
Even thought it was.
It doesn’t require diving into anything, he could just have said “I’m not ‘slumming it'”…
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-14/02-its-the-love-i-havent-got/autonomy/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-14/02-its-the-love-i-havent-got/onesided/
(I agree with Doopyboop fwiw, but I think that’s an… interesting interpretation of the linked events, Odo.)
Agreed, Lucy clearly broke up with Walky because she realized she was far more in love with Walky than he was her, as well as clearly still feeling hurt and burnt out by how Linda has treated her. Yeah, she reassured Walky afterwards that it wasn’t his fault and she still loved him, but it still hurts and she’s allowed to reflect afterwards and decide she doesn’t deserve to be talked down to like that. Religion had nothing to do with their break up.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2024/comic/book-14/02-its-the-love-i-havent-got/bombshell/ Also gonna link this here too as Walky’s perspective on the break up.
But Doopyboop, she voted for Obama! /s
@Doopyboop: also yeah it was sooooo obviously a cascade of badness. Lucy tried to push through each time, and eventually couldn’t.
Walky being intensely negative about her religion was, like, not something she ENJOYED. I’m sure it would be somewhere on a long list of reasons she realized they weren’t going to work out? But definitely not top three.
Biiig agree on that one.
Also something that keeps frustrating me on this point is people acting like it’s a binary situation.
Like. I think it’s possible NOT to blame Walky for not standing up for his mom because one recognizes that that was a really difficult situation and maybe doesn’t feel comfortable passing judgment on him, but ALSO to understand that it’s actually completely fine for that to have been a deal breaker for Lucy?
There’s a real whiff of “it’s actually only okay to break up with someone if they wronged you” round these parts, and it keeps cropping up every time a breakup happens or is even mentioned.
Hopefully it’s just… immaturity, because approaching life with the idea that breakups are fundamentally a bad thing to do to another person that they must “deserve” is a terrible way to live one’s own life.
@Odo – I think you’re absolutely right about the Walky/Lucy breakup. He warned off his parents over and over again and she didn’t listen. I guess he was just supposed to stand up and tell his mom, who he’s still dependent on and has been terrifying him his whole life, to fuck off in public or he’s not good enough for Lucy. It’s a ridiculous standard to hold him to.
He warned her about his parents exactly once, then they both schemed a silly ass sitcom shenanigan plot regarding Amber. And seeing how he was able to stand up to his mother to defend Amber, and then AFTER the break up also stood up to his mother, as well as having already stood up for his sister as well, clearly he is able to. It’s complicated, yes, because he depends on her, but acting as if that means Walky should just sit there and let his girlfriend be degraded for the crime of being black, and she’s just supposed to take it, that’s fucked up too. You know that’s fucked up, right?
If the racism angle is too difficult, let’s think of it like this. When Joyce introduced Dorothy to her father, let’s imagine instead of the ‘eh’ acceptance he gave, he instead responded by telling Joyce that he raised her better than to slum it up with lesbians and atheists. He thought better of her, and that she is destined to be with a man as God intended. Standing up for Dorothy would be difficult, but if Joyce truly loves Dorothy and wishes to have a future with her, she WILL stand up for her girlfriend in some way. If instead she just let that slide and Dorothy is just expected to either end the relationship or continue to suffer being told she is a lesser partner to Joyce because she’s a woman… I mean, the reasonable choice IS to break up, no? So why are people so mad Lucy did exactly that?
Once again though, Linda didn’t say “you are slumming it because you are dating a black woman”. She said just said “you’re slumming it”.
So your comparison doesn’t work. If you wanted it to be a reasonable comparison it would be Joyce’s dad going “Oh, you’re dating Dorothy. I see…. I heard you’re an atheist now, and I am very disappointed that you’ve turned your back on god. We raised you better”
The critical difference is that he doesn’t say he is more hostile due to bigotry, rather he uses a plausible alternative reason.
That’s the implication of what she is saying, Odo, that is why Lucy looks down and is upset. Do you need the characters to stare directly into the 4th wall and state “I am being racist” or use the N word? Or is it enough to have Linda imply that being in a relationship with Lucy means Walky isn’t living up to his full potential and the other characters react with “man she’s pretty fucking racist for that”? c’mon, man. Jesus fucking christ.
yikes, odo
Because not living up to Lucy’s outsized expectations doesn’t mean Walky screwed up. Them breaking up was inevitable no matter what happened with Walky’s parents, because Lucy was trying to stay blind to all the reasons they didn’t work and Walky was just trying to go along with it.
Calling this particular thing “outsized expectations” is… woof.
Defending someone from implicit racism is a heck of a lot more difficult than defending someone from explicit racism.
I am not arguing “Linda wasn’t being racist” I am arguing that it is hecking difficult for Walky to try to defend Lucy from Linda’s racism when that racism is expressed as snide comments towards Walky.
Because the reason why we know it was racist has a lot to do with the background we saw established leading up to “slumming it”.
If you just saw those panels in isolation would we think “Linda is really racist” or “Linda is has strict expectations for her son’s career path, is grumpy at him for failing a class, and uses some problematic vocabulary”.
Either Walky chooses that moment to start laying out a big case for how Linda shows a pattern of racism over time, which is opening a giant confrontation right then and there, a confrontation that Walky is not going to win because Linda will just continue to deny and deflect… Or Walky might try to call out the limited example of problematic language (“slumming it”).
But try starting a conversation with your parent about culturally sensitive language while they are chewing you out about failing a class. Even if they are receptive to such critique, they probably will say it’s not the priority right that moment.
—
Walky CANNOT make Linda not racist. He cannot make her stop acting racist or making racist comments.
He can protect Lucy by respecting that Lucy might not be willing to be around Linda, and supporting that boundary by not expecting Lucy to be around his mother. He did this.
@Odo I feel like this argument is trying very hard to wash away Walky’s flaws. Character flaws that been pretty consistent in him from the start of the comic. Avoiding confrontation, going with the flow of events instead of using his agency, inability to confront his parents. I do agree that Lucy is also at fault for that breakup but you’ve made all the wrong points. She shouldn’t have to tolerate Linda’s racism and Walky should’ve defended her even if doing so was difficult. Those are his failures to own.
Lucy’s failures were having expectations for the relationship she didn’t earn. She assumed Walky loved her because they hung out as friends for a few months. Those expectations are ultimately what created the opportunities for Walky’s own weaknesses and failings to show. Hold Lucy accountable for that, for essentially pressuring Walky into a level of commitment he wasn’t ready for, but you also need to hold him accountable for not being brave enough to communicate that to Lucy or defend her to his parents until after the fact. Lucy did deserve better than that.
Once upon a time, Odo, I had a crush on a guy. This guy happened to be a black guy. When my mom learned he was black, she was quick to tell me that I “needed to be careful” because “some people in the family wouldn’t approve of that”. I will admit that I misjudged this, and thought that my mom was trying to be covert about her own misgivings, you know, trying to be implicitly racist. I learned later that no, she was just sincerely trying to warn me that our extended family was racist as fuck but when I thought my mom was being implicitly racist about a guy I had a crush on, I laid into her instantly.
I told her that anyone who doesn’t approve of him based on his skin color is no family of mine, I told her that I was ashamed of her and didn’t expect her to say such things. And for my mom’s part, she didn’t even try to defend herself. She just accepted what I said, probably because she realized even from a place of trying to be helpful, saying “be careful about dating a black guy” is a bad look. And I will say, I was a lot more afraid of my mom than Walky is of Linda. The most Linda will do is give him disapproving looks and be a passive aggressive bongo. Meanwhile, I’ve personally seen my mom break a wooden paddle over my cousin’s ass as well as breaking things in our kitchen. Walky cannot make Linda stop being racist, and the most he can do is protect Lucy from further interactions with Linda, but he didn’t even talk to Lucy about what his mother said to her. Sirksome is right about the parts both Lucy and Walky had to play in the relationship not working, but I’ll keep saying it over and over, Lucy does indeed deserve better than how Linda treated her.
Aight, let’s assume Walky does that.
“Mom, I’m ashamed of you. How could you say that I’m slumming it just because of the color of my girlfriend’s skin?! Lucy is wonderful and you are racist”
How do you think that would go? Would Linda listen and be receptive? Would her behavior meaningfully change?
I really, really doubt it. We saw exactly how she would react when Walky did call her racist. She called it a distraction. She minimized her own behavior. She said she couldn’t be racist because she married a black man and voted for Obama.
Walky calling out Linda does not change Linda’s behavior because Linda is not your mom. Linda is racist, not just saying something poorly but with good intentions.
And the worst Linda can do to Walky isn’t a dirty look. She could likely force him to abandon his university education. Walky already saw how she dealt with her less favored child.
Of course Lucy deserves better than Linda. And it is fair for Lucy to decide that Linda being in her life via Walky is too much, and to break up over that. But Linda being racist is not Walky’s fault.
We don’t blame Ruth for having Clint as a grandfather. We don’t blame Joyce for her mother. Let’s not act as if these college students have control over their abusive parents.
And yet somehow Walky did manage to call out his mother as racist and wow, all she did was give him a dirty look! Amazing! https://www.dumbingofage.com/2024/comic/book-14/02-its-the-love-i-havent-got/speechimifier/
Even if you think Walky couldn’t have said anything to Linda at the time, he could still have done more afterward.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-14/01-everybodys-looking-for-nothing/hadtove/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-14/01-everybodys-looking-for-nothing/unenviable/
And instead of comforting her, he made a crass joke, and then said “I told you so”.
There were multiple separate repeat instances of dropping the ball on his part.
(Als agree with Sirksome’s points.)
Joyce is still confused about the whole “bisexuals are real” thing isn’t she?
I know it’s complicated for some people to comprehend the concept, but we do exist. We’re not unicorns…
Its not a Denial that Bisexuality exists, its a Denial of Self.
She loves Dorothy and believes in the whole “One True Love” deal, so to acknowledge that she might have Loved Joe, or anybody besides Dorothy, is unthinkable. In her mind she has now always loved Dorothy (which is accurate, since she met her anyway), and to have loved anybody else would be a betrayal of that.
But if she’s bisexual then isn’t it both?
We’re talking about Joyce. Things can only be one thing.
not really? Intent matters here more then Interpretation.
Yes what Joyce is doing COULD be perceived as Bi-Erasure, but thats not at all where her head is at or she views sexuality.
Joyce is horrible at self reflection or just understanding herself in general, we can blame the church for that. She is also not very knowledgeable about sexuality and how relationships are supposed to work. She knew nothing about them before entering college and has not exactly had a good set of people to learn about it from. Billie is a Disaster Bi and Danny is not in her friend group.
On another note, whether or not somebody is a sexuality or not, is up to them how they want to label it. Even if she fully understood herself and accepted her attractions as they were, it would not be Bi-Erasure for her to simply not use the Label of Bisexual. Lots of people do not put a Label on their sexuality or Gender, and in doing so it is not Erasure of those Sexuality or Genders.
Erasure is when you say Other people can’t be this or that, its to say that those Sexualities or Genders do not exist, which is not at all what Joyce is doing.
It’s up to them to label themselves, to a point. It’s got to reflect reality. We’re not, for example, going to accept that Jennifer is straight.
As for Joyce, it’s hard to say exactly what she’s doing. She hasn’t said she’s bisexual certainly. She’s said she’s gay, but also that she’s only technically gay because of Dorothy – which sounds to me like she’s saying she’s “straight with an exception”. Other than using the term “gay”, she hasn’t denied attraction to guys.
Notably, I don’t think she’s used “lesbian” at all
I think its more Joyce still has a lifetime of depictions of “gay” people as completely over the top caricatures. Like the her upbringing would have basically used “gay” as a synonym for hedonistic.
There is probably some element of her reconciling that image of gay people as full flaming pride parade 24/7 against her reality of them being just normal people.
I feel like your coolness as a gay depends upon your willingness to do crimes against the upper crust of society.
So remember, kids: be gay, do crime.
I generally like Sal but she’s always been a bit mean to her brother, hasn’t she?
I thought they’d come to some terms when he torpedoed his relationship with his mother. Granted, that was a bit self-destructive on his part…
Noted that Sarah isn’t there today. Is she hanging with Tony before class? Good for her.
Sal still has unresolved anger towards Walky that she’s processing, and Sal, Walky, and Billie/Jennifer have never had the most healthy sibling dynamic. That doesn’t excuse her being mean, but it’s not totally out of left field either.
They are siblings, their level of poking at eachother is valid, also Sal is right, if Walky wanted another girlfriend, he could fairly easily find another girl to date, or re-date by the end of the day, he is actually good with women in some weird way.
Ironically, that’s a very sexist attitude of Sal. Because it falls into the trap that men aren’t emotionally invested in relationships and can easily replace them.
Its not about Walky being a Guy though, its about Walky being Walky and how he has handled relationships since he got into college, and potentially before that. Dude jumps between relationships within a day of the breakup sometimes and acts Unfazed about it every time except this time.
Except the reason he got with Amber is because he was very much fazed by Dorothy dumping him, and tweeting back and forth with Amber was the only thing that made him feel better (he told Sal that when she caught them).
And he spent months without any romantic partner after Halloween.
Then he got with Lucy and was/is still fazed by that breakup; he really only got back with Dorothy because Dorothy was sexually frustrated and dude doesn’t really do casual relationships.
If Dorothy wasn’t crashing out sexually, he more than likely wouldn’t have gotten romantically involved with her at the time, being, again, still fazed by Lucy dumping him (and confronting his mom), and that he’s pretty passive about this stuff.
Remember that Walky apparently never even had an interest in women until he saw Dorothy; just the sight of her pushed his buttons for the first time and then he fell in love with her over time.
Amber, despite that I prefer their relationship over him being with Dorothy, and despite having similar features as Dorothy, didn’t get him going with looks alone, but with strong feelings, being on the rebound, and other stuff.
Lucy, on the other hand, was a friend first and he probably never would have said anything if Dorothy didn’t suggest it, so now he lost a friend and a girlfriend.
Dorothy has been the catalyst, directly or indirectly, behind all of his romantic pairings, and here she is again, ending it after *just* getting back with him, and doing so due to cheating no less.
Looking at it like that (which she is not doing, of course), Sal is wrong to treat this as something he’ll easily get over, at least this soon.
And considering that he only ever dated within the friend group, it’s unlikely that he’ll get with anyone today – barring Dina, Becky and/or Joe suddenly wanting to experiment – as every one in the group is paired off (or laid up with injuries).
Of course, there is the dark horse option where Raidah somehow figures a way to “ara ara” him, maybe through mutual Joyce hatin’.
“Dorothy has been the catalyst, directly or indirectly, behind all of his romantic pairings, and here she is again, ending it after *just* getting back with him, and doing so due to cheating no less.”
This really hits, I hadn’t considered just how deep her involvement was before.
Jennifer/Billie even points out to Dorothy when confronting her and Joyce about how Dorothy doesn’t “appreciate the hold she has on Walky” (before Dorothy and Joyce decided to make even that about them).
I thought she made a good point, and was a bit bummed to see how quickly it was written off
This is the Walky analysis I crave.
My only argument with this is that I don’t think that it was Dorothy being sexually frustrated that led to them getting back together, though that was a reasonable assumption at the time. It was already her trying to avoid her interest in Joyce.
It treats women as disposable too, but it’s Sal attempting a pep talk here. She’d be similarly dismissive of any guy that broke her heart, and act like she was never emotionally invested in him. That’s Sal’s coping mechanism, being cool and detached so people can’t hurt her. (Similar to Walky’s sarcasm and goofball act.)
She’s warmer than she used to be towards Walky, but I don’t think she’s taking his relationships that seriously. She was pretty dismissive to Lucy while they were dating too.
I think if Walky really starts hurting she might show a bit more empathy, but at this point when he seems only superficially hurt I don’t think she’s going to be too kind
He IS really hurting now, and she is dismissing him, though. There’s no indication that she’ll show any more empathy for ‘real’ pain because he is in it right now and her response is ‘suck it up ya big wuss baby’.
Let me rephrase, I think if she perceived how serious the harm was she’d be less dismissive, but Walky outwardly presents as pretty durable. I do not think she recognizes the extent
In previous comments, many began to express their anger towards Sal. And the truth is, I would have liked to see some venom from her towards Joyce.
Hmmm, at least she values her brother… in her own way.
The best thing is that Walky got a break from all that and discovered another kind of love, self-love.
And that he at least keeps his distance from Joyce and Dorothy (Not forever, I know they’ll run into each other, and I hope that Dorothy at least sincerely apologizes).
She won’t. She seems to think Joyce’s ‘cruel laughter and mockery’ breakup with Walky on her behalf was adorable, funny, and perfect.
No one in this comic ever genuinely thinks they’ve done Walky wrong, I increasingly think. No one ever considers he even has feelings to be hurt, much less that they have hurt said feelings.
Good job tonight, Tony! (I know he’s not in this one. Because he was busy with the game. Obviously.)
The DoA IU team should play a tone whenever Tony scores. They’d play a lot of tones, because he’s Toney
Ngl, everyone in today’s strip who isn’t Walky is doing a terrible job, so “not being in today’s strip” is just helping Tony.
Despite Walky being rather sloppy and lazy, he is good with women, or was until Recently when he lost a lot of self confidence.
I don’t think that Walky, in his current state, will be having a healthy relationship that goes beyond a rebound 1 night stand for a bit. Unless Amber suddenly becomes able to move without severe pain and Walky gets the backbone to go and actually talk to her in person.
Also good on Sal for calling him out, dude has been swapping between 2 girls his entire college life and managed to slip a 3rd girl in between the two. If given the option, he would probably have already gotten back together with Amber, if she wasn’t to banged up to bang. Honestly the two deserve each other. They might not make each other BETTER, but they certainly have more potential then Walky and Dorothy ever did.
How fast Walky gets with Amber may depend on how fast Amber can repair Dina and Becky’s relationship.
“Swapping between two girls his entire college life” is a weird take.
He only ever liked 3 girls in his life: Dorothy at first sight, Amber because she made him feel better after being dumped *by* Dorothy, and Lucy over time after being encouraged *by* Dorothy.
He didn’t “swap” between Dorothy and Amber.
Dorothy dumped him, twice, then he, unexpectedly and unplanned, got with Amber on the rebound.
That ended, kinda, several times, then ended decisively at Halloween.
He did not get back with Dorothy right after that.
He didn’t get with anyone right after that.
He got with Lucy months later.
Where was the “swapping” between Dorothy and Amber his entire college life?
He spent about a month, maybe a month and a half with Dorothy, then about 2 weeks each with Amber (but only if you count the time between Mike’s death and Halloween) and Lucy.
He’s spent just as much time single as he has with anyone, let alone swapping between Dorothy and Amber.
Sal can be this bratty about Walky’s relationships because I suspect she is honestly just finding out about him backsliding with Dorothy right here and now.
Which I’m sure she’d have warned him off of if he’d asked, but she’s not wrong that you kinda need a score card for the guy.
I think Sal still holds Walky’s golden boy status against him regardless of how much he’s trying to show how much she means to him.
sal gets to be a brat because they’re twins tbh. normal sibling behaviour. they have the nuclear codes for pissing each other off
Sal was at the party with everyone. She knew before this.
She arrived late, meaning she didn’t see the confrontation between Lucy, Dorothy, and Walky, and realistically Sal was also there with her boyfriend and nearly had a fight with Asher. I think it is reasonable that she may not have noticed her brother sitting next to Dorothy in a crowded room, or also realistically, didn’t assume anything just because they were seated next to each other.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2024/comic/book-14/04-for-me-it-was-tuesday/partypartypartyhard/
This is literally the only strip with all three actually in frame together during that party (other examples I saw were like one of the other’s elbow or hair and that having them tagged for the strip) and they aren’t even in the same personal space in this strip.
You’re right that she arrived later and might not have seen Walky and Dorothy together.
She still saw Walky and Dorothy together the next morning when they all walked to class together and Dorothy even sat in on class with them asking people if they needed help with their notes.
Joyce even says that everyone is with their significant other except Sal and Jennifer.
So yes, Sal might not have known at the party.
But also yes, she still knew they were back together in the days after the party.
The way Sal’s joke hit Walky makes me think Willis is gearing up to plunge him into Hell. The slow realization about how little his friends group cares about him is just the beginning.
I really, REALLY hope we get a solid Walky crash out soon, complete with red panel (because I don’t think he’s had one!)
It could be a character arch of him becoming able to stand up for himself. He’s met the first condition acknowledging he’s like his father in that he avoids confrontation and realizes it’s a problem. The way Dorothys treated him is the latest showing of why it comes back to bite him. He’s so laid back Dorothy doesn’t think she needs to rein Joyce in on being a jerk or that she needs to prioritize a real apology and it’s that added disrespect and disregard that in my opinion really rubs salt in the wound.
Yeah, there’s been a lot of analysis of Walky and Joyce’s relationship and whether they’re actually friends and Joyce thinks that teasing was in bounds or whether she really hates him because of how he treated her and so it’s acceptable, but most of that discussion ignores Dorothy’s role and how she just let it slide. Let Joyce break her up with Walky and laugh in his face and hasn’t seemed to give it a moment’s thought since.
I really try to bring that up often. That a lot of the anger at Joyce might be a bit displaced because it’s Dorothy that’s actually responsible for hurting Walky. She’s the one who cheated on him, she’s the one that allowed Joyce to break them up (Although I find readers are very self serving in what moments count as a joke and which are very serious and irredeemable actions), but it seems that because Dorothy at least feels guilty and Joyce has been acting overtly obnoxious Dorothy kind of skirts past the harsher critiques.
I feel like Dorothy is a woman with just as much agency as Joyce in their cheating. Just because they kissed doesn’t mean they had to start dating. They chose to and they each hold equal responsibilities to their former partners they hurt. Let Dorothy own that. Don’t just let Joyce take all the heat because she’s the most annoying. It feels like Jacob round 2.
They’re both in the wrong but Joyce is the one who thought “no hard feelings” after gloating about it was the right thing to say to him. Dorothy is avoiding this sort of situation, just like she avoided talking to Walky and Joyce about how they treated each other while she was dating Walky.
I think here it’s mostly because Joyce was the active party – both back in the initial scene where she dumped him and yesterday’s strip.
I’ve been kinda worried about him going down a shitty dude/incel arc given some of the plot threads I’ve noticed/maybe read too much into. Between Raidah wanting to use him for his connections and a potential dislike for Joyce, the weird look he gave during his fight with the Incellorator when Jocelyne was getting a tour, all of the comments from Dorothy (plus the cheating), and most of his life falling apart and minimal support from those around him, it seems like he’d be in prime position to fall down some sort of bad path.
Although I would like to see more drunk Jason/Walky shenanigans. One of the dynamics I miss the most from the Its Walky days
I can’t see it for Walky. I can’t see anyone who actually likes women as much as he seems to turning incel. He’s never treated any of his girlfriends (or girl friends) as nothing but sex objects. He was friends with Lucy for months without even considering asking her out – or feeling resentful that she was “friend zoning” him.
OTOH, I’ve been remarkably bad at predicting plot twists since this arc started, so who knows.
Maybe should have worded it better, not a full-blown incel but more of a “swayed by shitty people like Raidah” type arc where he winds up in a similar situation as Jennifer/Billie after Halloween and separates himself from everyone else?
I wouldn’t see him going down a “women are evil” type path, but was imagining more of a “the women I’ve cared about/put on a pedestal have either hurt me or mostly not cared when I’ve been hurt” type vibe and then associating with shitty people
Walky seemed to clock immediately how big of a loser Incelerator was so I wouldn’t be *too* worried about that. His general loneliness curdling into resentment is definitely on the table though. I could see him falling into the “I’m alone and there’s nothing I can do to change it” type of blackpill/incel circles if he doesn’t find a support system irl.
Yeah, I think I could have worded it better as well. Good call on the “black pill” (far too many of those pills to keep up with these days…)
The comic I was referencing I was always confused by, since it seemed like we were getting a quick moment of “Sad Walky-eyes” in the 4th panel when the Incelorator made a comment about women “not needing us”, I always took it for Walky (while not agreeing) was thinking about comments Dorothy has made that Walky interpreted in a more hurtful way?
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2024/comic/book-15/02-the-one-where-jocelyne-returns/youllgetit/
The thing about being cool is, if you’re worrying about being cool, you’re not cool.
Question: Why are Lucy, and Jacob waiting for Walky, Sal, Billie/Jennifer, and Joyce? Are they actually friends with any of those 4?
I don’t know if Jacob is friends with Walky, but I have a hard time seeing him being friends with Sal, Billie/Jennifer, and especially Joyce after the whole cheating thing.
As for Lucy, is Joyce her friend? Because Walky is her ex, Billie is just her roommate who has been less than kind in the recent past, and Sal is too cool for Lucy(only slightly joking.)
Lucy is Jennifer’s roommate, and all of her hallmates think Jennifer is painfully cool. Lucy is not immune to wanting to hang out with cool people.
Oh right, I forgot that her new hallmates think she’s cool. I guess since Jacob is dating Lucy it gives him a reason to wait for Billie now.
Jacob’s old friend group was when he was dating Raidah, and that group was essentially just people together who were using each other for connections and upwards academic/social movement. So I think he’s used to just being around his gf’s friends. If anything the thing that is bothering him the most is that he’s cold right now lol
I’m not sure Jacob was ever part of that group. Obviously we saw him with Raidah, but we never saw him with any of the others.
Lucy doesn’t really have many (any?) friends, and all her dormmates don’t seem to go to whatever classes she’s doing.
Lucy and Jacob don’t have to wait for Jennifer, since they’re coming from the same room. We’ve seen both of them be at least cordial with Joyce since the timeskip, even if they aren’t close friends. Maybe Lucy just got in the routine of walking with this group when she was crushing on/dating Walky and she doesn’t want to change it.
Lucy wants to be a popular girl with a big friend group. This is what she’s got. She doesn’t want to lose it.
I unlocked cool after I transitioned and started identifying as a lesbian and wearing leather jackets so I’m pretty sure it is in fact a thing.
Gods Walky needs actual friends.
Booster’s hourly rates are reasonable, even for a college student.
Am still waiting for Walky and Joe to meet up/ bond and have their recently dumped gym bro arc
SAME, ideally alongside them getting a much needed self esteem boost from it.
Oh thank God I was worried something of consequence was about to happen
Joyce is not a Bisexual Disaster, she’s just a disaster. To be a Bisexual Disaster, she needs a few hundred years, an affair with her mother and to create/adopt a vampire childe with her current failing relationship to keep the relationship going. You cannot be a Bisexual Disaster unless you can out Bisexual Disaster Lestat de Lioncourt.
I only know Liam.
I feel like being a Bisexual Disaster should not require Afro Samurai headband rules.
Though, if all the characters in the comic who want to vie for the title started dueling each other with swords like it’s Highlander, I’d be down.
It does bother me that Lucy is the only person dressed appropriately for the weather, but I don’t blame Willis for not wanting to bury his characters in winter clothes all the time.
i think being gay does inherently make you more cool but like, not related to how you act socially
Sorry honey, the coolness comes as a result of the self-scrutiny and examination of your own Deal, some degree of burning off caring how you’re perceived socially, and usually some wardrobe/self confidence work.
Also listening to the song Death by Glamor on a loop for like a year worked for me.
very fierce
Well. That’s a major bummer. Of all people, I’d hoped Jacob would say something about the situation, specifically because he probably knows about Joe and he’s seen firsthand Joyce violating relationship boundaries and risking hurting people to get whatever she personally wants. If there was a time for that conversation, this felt like it.
Could happen later, I guess.
Also extremely disappointed in Sal. “You got cheated on? Suck it up and move on.” #1 Sister award for that one.
Sal is perhaps thinking, “It’ll take about an hour for Amber’s horny to outweigh her pain, and that’ll fix that.”
There isn’t too much the people here can say right here and now without it lightning rodding into nothing but hard feelings on either Joyce or Walky.
But they can see how those two are doing right now and think of what they might say to them personally later, it looks like Lucy is specifically not saying anything right now, and to be honest, regardless of what she thinks, why would she.
Jacob will probably be the last person to critic Joyce precisely because he cheated on his previous girlfriend and would probably think he has no place calling out Joyce on that. Even if it’s with Joyce precisely that he cheated his previous GF with.
On top of Jacob seeming to reconcile understanding Sara more onto to Ino reverse into a relationship with Lucy.
We actually never resolved that. Lucy herself questioned Jacob and he never answered—only retrospectively through a convo with…Ethan I think—realizing why Sara is the way she is and sorta annoyed with himself.
Perfect mouse-over text. No note.
Hehehe, Sal saying it as it is. Nice!
Zero-Fat Jacob Williams, now at a freezer aisle near you.
“You’re welcome”, says Rescinded
damn, Walky’s own sister doesn’t even stand up for him. Sarah is the only person to even chastise Joyce and Dorothy.
Joyce, Jacob JUST TOLD you that you get to be cool by having no body fat.
Oh Jacob, you need to eat more. Become a Strongman and not a Bodybuilder!
Damn. So Joyce is just going to keep getting progressively obnoxious, especially when not having Dorothy around as a filter/buffer for her tone deaf behavior
I mean, yes. To be honest this is the most she’s ever put her autistic traits on display. She’s hyperfixated and uninterested in any other conversation topic or how it impacts other people.
Joyce is about five minutes away from having someone go nuclear on her. People have been sporadically blowing up at her so far, and she hasn’t been taking the hints.
Not as long as Walky exists.people will apparently ignore any level of Joyce stuff if there’s a Walky to shit on.
That’s a scary world you live in.
If Sal’s history in this comic is anything to go off of, Sal will be 100% correct and he’s going to hook up with Amber before the storyline is over.
So I guess aside from Sarah and now Walky, nobody else really cares about Joyce’s shitty behavior towards everyone else lately? Joyce just gets to treat lots of other people around her like shit with no pushback or negative consequences at all?
Well we did have that encounter with Asma and then the encounter with Raidah calling Joyce out, so there’s that I guess
To be fair, that whole Asma thing was retroactively inserted by the author (since the strips are written literally months in advance – this gives time for things to be edited/inserted… especially when IRL stuff happens)
As for everyone’s reaction to Joyce… this literally NOT news to anyone that has actually gotten to know her – at all. And her level of annoying is pretty on-par with many of her other neuroses/quirks. It’s still fresh for everyone, so I doubt there will be much pushback at all for now (since there wasn’t originally, until geo-political events IRL forced the author’s hand)… but if Joyce’s behavior doesn’t mellow out, then yeah, people will likely start calling her on her immaturity.
Right now, it’s mostly everyone else saying ‘congrats for finally realizing what we all already knew’. Hopefully once the new-ness of it wears off, Joyce will calm down a bit…. again, ‘hopefully’.
True, although that was solely about the way the kiss disrespected the gravity of the protest and co-opted its attention.
Looks that was. Goddammit.
*Looks that way
(trying to type with a fever)
Who is “everyone else” here exactly? Like the only person i can say ahe acted actually shitty towards is Walky and perphaps Joe. With anyone else that might be affected by resent events luke Becky and Dina was completely accidental collateral damage. Otherwise she been, kinda cringy due to her euphoria about getting together with Dorothy. It fells like you are exaggerating just how many people has actually been affected in any way by Joyce behavior.
But you see, Joyce is so bad for spontaneously kissing Dorothy in a protest.
And then not doing anything with Dorothy after… till both couples had broken off.
And then she was funnily sibling rivalry mean to Walky… and then she got in front of her sister’s coming out (one she didn’t want to do yet) and then she…she… wait, I have it…
She did nothing literally wrong?
I dunno man.
Some commenters really need to hate Joyce for some reason. Many points have been because she is a “white bread idiot” (their words not mine) who was in a spot she shouldn’t have been or something… whatever.
I get the feeling Raidah correctly grilling her is going to be a theme that’s going to take a while to catch up to Joyce, and it’s probably going to be because we haven’t seen Joe since “we’ll talk, later” and I get the feeling she forgot all about him.
I see this storyline’s trend of “the best Walky can expect from anyone is being dismissed and ignored, but what he’s mostly going to get is shat on” continues.
Honestly that’s just the trend of the comic as a whole. Much like there are designated Hate Sink characters, Walky is a designated Punching Bag character. And much like those hate sinks, he’s just the right amount of obnoxious, toxic, sarcastic and without depth (at first glance) that it’s very easy to root for him being a punching bag that gets shit on for both audience amusement and others’ character development.
He makes loads of mistakes and is frequently punished for those mistakes by the inevitable consequences of his choices leading up to them (which is sort of the opposite situation of Joyce, who makes loads of mistakes but has her consequences build up like a jenga tower she doesn’t notice is there until it’s already fallen on top of her). And because of all that, he’s one of the comic’s biggest underdogs, and I’ve got my fingers crossed we get a powerful breaking point for him when he can’t keep pretending everything is fine and running away from/coping with his (many) problems by swimming in nuggets.
I think your comparison with Walky/Joyce is an interesting one.
Walky makes mistakes, often debatable how big of mistakes, but still mistakes. And the universe punishes him for it.
Joyce makes mistakes. And the universe just let’s her skate by with it.
Maybe you are right that Joyces mistakes are a Jenga tower that’s going to all topple at some point. But until thay happens it just feels like “the universe” likes one of them better than the other.
Uncool gay people rise up
There are dozens of us!
Ya need more XP, Joyce.
Ya gotta do more grinding.
(hurr hurr)
Dang Sal that was straight up mean…
Like I’m starting to wonder if Walky needs to just leave the friendgroup at this point…
Mean but not untrue.
They are all mostly Freshmen in college.
This friend group is coupled around existing relationships, roommate status, class association, and shared trauma. The two boys cheated on are alright guys working through their stuff and getting better, who half the group didn’t super like at one point or found kind of annoying at best. The other cheating half are two kind of annoying but mostly harmless girls who have been helpful or at least attempted kindness time and time again. No one has personally hurt each other to such a severe enough degree or violated boundaries to oust anyone from these groups it seems, whatever those boundaries are.
And I buy that! But not out of a “it’s not called smarting of age” thing or the reverse of “actually they’re all really mature” thing. It’s youthful apathy. These people aren’t great friends, hell I’m not even sure they’re good friends. But they have some sort of camaraderie, rely on each other’s company to some degree, and I think unless someone really blows up at the other, that’s not really gonna change.
Cause they’re Freshmen in college. And everyone actually meaningfully frustrated with Joyce and Dorothy are people are who openly had existing gripes with them or existing and extended empathy for Joe and Walky.
None of this weird to me. Maybe I’m problem?
No, no i get you completely this is more or less how i fell about the whole thing. Tgw problem is definitely not you 👍
The problem is there’s a huge grey area between not caring at all and social ostracism. I had a friend in freshman year who cheated on his long distance gf. We didn’t kick him from the group but we gave a damn. We told him it was wrong and he should break up with her. And this was a gf we didn’t know at all, a total stranger. The apathy here is unrealistic.
People should care, maybe have a lower opinion of Joyce and Dorothy. This complete lack of caring is strange.
Also let’s be real this is a story taking the drama out of it for “realism” is silly (and this reaction isn’t realistic at all).
It’s really just the opposite of my experience — my college friend groups mostly pushed anyone who cheated (or did a couple other boneheaded moves) to the periphery pretty much instantly. Especially if they weren’t close but were just kinda part of the dorm clique — if this person is willing to lie to their bf/gf, what kind of bullshit will they feed the guy they walk to class with and play cards with of a Friday evening or whatever?
I think if Joyce or Dorothy had actually shown themselves willing to lie to their boyfriends, they’d be getting bigger negative repercussions.
We can argue over whether or not this cheating story has been lacking in the drama department, for sure, but I think “kissed and made out repeatedly while being too cowardly to break things off with their boyfriends for 24 hours” is just a slightly different animal that I wouldn’t, ultimately, expect to net them a ton of social consequences.
I think a lot of people’s hopes for consequences were also coalesced much earlier in the storyline, before the exact extent of Joyce’s cheating was revealed, before it turned out that those of us who thought Joe might have expected it were correct.
So I think some folks got their hearts set on this friend group dissolving in no small part because they’re comparing it in their heads to more intense situations — where Joyce did more than kiss Dorothy (repeatedly, but still) for less than 24 hours before coming clean, or Joe was shocked and devastated rather than putting a cheerful face on about the whole thing until Joyce had left the room.
I think friend groups DO break up over betrayal and hurt feelings all the time, but. Right now, I think the biggest in-universe criticisms for the characters are:
— Joyce was a butt to Walky when she broke up with him for Dorothy
— Joyce has left Joe hanging
— Joyce is being kind of an obnoxious baby gay
…and genuinely, I don’t think anyone here even knows about the first two things.
Huh guess that’s it then huh? Walky gets grouchy at Joyce for half a strip, then we return to our regularly scheduled program: “shat on the depressed guy and watch Joyce be obnoxious”
Rather than just copy and paste my response a couple strips ago I’m just gonna reiterate again that for Sal, she watched her brother spend the last week and a half apparently dosey-doing with three women in some capacity so her cracking a joke about him finding a new girl feels about right.
And in case you’re wondering what I mean about the three women thing…
Dating Lucy.
Bringing Amber to dinner with their parents as his fake girlfriend.
Dorothy.
rather than drive myself insane trying to remind people about the events of the comic they’re reading I’ll just link the Amber strip here
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-13/04-but-dont-give-yourself-away/addicted/
From Sal’s perspective, Walky literally went from still dating Lucy that morning, to bringing his ex to dinner with their parents and passing her off as his girlfriend, then in the next couple days his REAL girlfriend breaks up with him, then he gets back with his OTHER ex and that relationship breaks up within a few days as well. Even if bringing Amber was just a way to gotcha his parents, Sal didn’t know that here, and you gotta admit that 1) bringing your ex as your fake girlfriend is A Move (even Amber calls it out as a relationship trope thing, with Walky’s dad catching on that the two still obviously have feelings for each other) and 2) the fact that Lucy broke up with him pretty soon after also gives off an impression.
Yep.
For as much as I don’t think Joyce is the villain a lot of people are making her out to be, I’m a little disappointed no one is calling her out for what an asshole she just was.
Honestly if the comic stopped for characters to call out everytime one of them is kind of an asshole we still be in last semester.
Can we talk about how rancid the vibes I’m getting from the bonus strip are?
I really, really hope I’m missing something with it.
Because what I’m getting from it is, “Joe is taking this breakup so badly he’s regressed to being an object instead of a character, and thus he has no more role in the story.”
A few months ago, I said (either here or on a discord thread about DoA- shoutout to DarkoNeko) that the part I was the most troubled by with the whole cheating business was how it was going to reduce Joe to merely being a stepping stone for Joyce’s growth- a way for Joyce to get some experience in romance before diving headlong into Dorothy’s thighs.
But we haven’t even gotten any of that. Her romance with Joe hasn’t mattered in the slightest to Joyce. She hasn’t changed one bit because she went out with him.
Which wouldn’t be the end of the world- Joe has obviously changed and grown a great deal on his end. His conversation with Rachel was a great example. There clearly are still some very interesting stories to be told about Joe’s growth, his relationship with masculinity and his processing trying to avoid being a cheater so hard only to end up getting cheated on.
But this bonus strip seems to be saying that we’re not going to get any of that. That Joe uas been reduced to an inanimate object now that his role in the story as Joyce’s boyfriend is over and Willis needed the vote to remind them he exists. Which is not only upsetting to me as someone who found Joe’s character arc to be one of the best-written parts of the comic but also really flies in the face of his last appearances, which seemed to be indicating that he’d still have a role in the comic, even if it didn’t involve interacting with Dorothy or Joyce.
I honestly try not to judge the patreon strip mainly because we’re just seeing the first panel here. I don’t have patreon, so I don’t know what happens in the rest of it, but it’s just as plausible that the joke is Danny goes on a monologue like “I know it must be hard for you, I saw in the newspaper that your girlfriend cheated on you with another girl, you must be so distraught and as your best friend I am here for you” and then the last panel reveal is that Joe is asleep with a handheld in his lap. And, obviously Joe is going to reappear in the comic. It’s not like this bonus strip is his last appearance and Joe will never show up again. I would save your ire and judgement for when that happens, even if it does end up being three months from now, because at least you’ll have a reason to be upset rather than being upset about the possibilities, if that makes sense?
Yeah…. that’s… thats not what happened in the bonus strip.
Cool, I can’t exactly criticize or comment on something I cannot see. I still think Rogue’s concerns that Joe is an inanimate object and his last appearance in the comic is going to be that bonus strip are unfounded concerns. Unless you’re telling me that the bonus strip is the reveal that Joe died of a broken heart Padme style.
I’m certain it won’t be his last appearance. The object part… the strip does seem to just kind of make fun of people that are concerned for him and a method of laughing at his emotional state. But it’s also not part of the main strip so I’m not sure how seriously we should take it? Hopefully not very.
oof
Suddenly I’m really glad I stopped paying for Patreon.
Have you thought, perhaps, that is just mean to be a joke ans it’s weird to make so many assumptions about Willis intentions out of it? This fella very melodramatic.
Jokes are meant to be funny. Does it sound like Rogue 7 was laughing?
I don’t know they don’t really seem to have much of a sense of a humor.
https://bsky.app/profile/damnyouwillis.bsky.social/post/3m7g2dkw3is2a
Actually it does seem that you are one who need to read this.
That…uh…that makes it worse.
You see how that makes it worse, right?
It’s not that I think Joe is never going to appear in the strip again. It’s that it looks like he’s only going to appear in the strip again as a punchline. And the fact that this is how Willis is *choosing* to depict a guy they used to write so well doesn’t exactly give me confidence he’ll ever be used well again.
There are preview panels showing him talking to Dina, twice, that don’t seem to be implying that his only reappearance from this point on is a punchline. The bonus strip is a punchline, but it’s also a bonus strip. If Willis decided to have an important plot point/development of Joe’s behind a paywall that’d such for readers. A joke strip behind a paywall, however, that’s fine.
I’ve only seen the one panel, Dina getting angry at Joe, which considering their low-key friendship *also* being a character beat I very much enjoyed, is concerning.
But I think my point is that I don’t know if Joe is going to get to *have* important plot points/develoments anymore. He hasn’t shown up at all today, and it’s become increasingly clear that Joyce is not going to be getting back to him. His role in Joyce’s story is done. Which seems to me to indicate that him having any sort of prominent role in the comic as a whole is done. He’s only good for jokes like this anymore.
I really don’t understand why that’s the conclusion you’re coming to about Joe’s character when there’s still at least three more currently written storylines ahead with who knows how many more to go, but I’m not going to try and change your mind when you’re pretty well set on this thought process. Best I can say is I hope you’re having a good day and god speed, yo.
It is a testament to the strength of the writing of previous strips that we care about Joe at all. He’s had more a traditional/transformative character arc than most players in the strip, and right now it feels as if that is being buried for a victory lap for someone who has acted counter to that journey. That’s why writers often show you a character who is about to have a bad turn come their way do something unlikeable, so that the reader feels comfortable enjoying the characters loss. But Joe? He worked hard to be a better person, overcome his limitations, and presented himself as genuinely thoughtful. Joe had an easy growth, as just being a regular person made him appear to have put in work.
Inversely, this has made Joyce look particularly self-centered and callous. And she is a character who continues to put a disproportionate emphasis on empathy.
So if you find the audience seeing Joe as the empathic one and Joyce as the callous one, you’ve either screwed up real bad… or done a very good job. It’s all in the payoff – or lack therof. Time will tell which it is.
hmmm
joe is a topic of discussion! its hard for me to really care about joe when i remember how awful he was
“The audience” doesn’t feel that way, though. That the comments are currently being dominated by negativity does not mean the entire audience of the comic even feels negatively about it, much less that they’re all in agreement with your specific criticism.
That the comments suck to read and participate in right now is not the same thing as the comic itself having alienated all of its fans.
I certainly never said “the entire audience”. I also never said anything going on in the strip was negative or suggested people should feel negative about it. I basically said “The storyline has not played out yet – wait and see what happens before judging”.
“So if you find the audience seeing Joe as the empathic one and Joyce as the callous one, you’ve either screwed up real bad… or done a very good job.”
This whole line of reasoning is absolutely predicated on the idea that “the audience” unanimously sees Joe as “the empathetic one” and Joyce as “the callous one”. You then go on to say that whether this is good writing or bad writing is entirely dependent on whether or not that pays off.
I am just pushing back, as politely as I can, on the idea that you are describing the entire readership, rather than a specific segment of it, and on the idea that “the writing” must be bad if “the audience” (again, not the whole audience, but a specific segment of it) doesn’t get to experience payoff for a change they say they’ve noticed.
I think it’s pretty clear, in-universe- that we are meant to view Joe with empathy. His exchange with Rachel alone clearly positioned him as someone willing to learn and grow, and his thoughtfulness with Joyce was evident in his expressed behavior. Conversely, Joyce herself acknowledges that she has acted against her own moral view of self, and she reacted in the strip with a degree of guilt over this. This isn’t matter of inference, this even goes beyond implication. These roles are explicitly demonstrated and even highlighted. So I don’t think I’m going out on a huge limb with my reasoning here. Joe HAS acted with empathy in this relationship. Joyce has acted callously – as noted by outside observer Sarah.
If this has zero closure – which I personally doubt – than that is not likely to read well. It is a very well set up inversion of the two characters and how they have exchanged roles (to a certain degree). But like most stories (or character arcs within larger narratives) the quality should be measured in the closure – which has not yet been delivered.
I didn’t say no one was supposed to view Joe with empathy.
I disagreed, and I still disagree, with this very binary assertion you keep making.
I don’t think Joe is “the empathetic one” because I think both of them are both empathetic and deserving of empathy.
I don’t think Joyce is “the callous one”, nor do I think Joe used to be “the callous one” at some nebulous point in the past.
I especially don’t think “the audience” agrees with you about this supposed switching of roles.
Disagree or not, it’s really not relevant. The strip (via Sarah) has been pretty blatant on the fact that Joyce has acted in a manner that is callous and that Joe didn’t deserve to be cheated on. In real life there would be a ton of mitigating aspects and human nuance to accompany this all – but this is fiction, so it’s pretty simple.
The relevant part I suspect we agree on – it’s important to wait and see hw it all plays out rather that prejudge.
Look, I agree about not prejudging the story, but. Everything else, no. And my disagreement is relevant because you keep arguing that the strip is objectively saying or doing only one specific thing.
— I don’t think Joyce has been callous, nor do I agree that the strip is telling us she’s been callous, nor do I agree with you that Sarah was being Willis’s mouthpiece and trying to directly tell the readers how to feel. Fiction is not, in fact, necessarily that simple. And I’m pretty sure Willis has given up on any illusion of being able to control how we feel, though I’m certainly not expecting all of their readership to ever recognize that, heh.
— Cards on the table: what I think Joyce has been is THOUGHTLESS. I think she’s always underestimated how much she meant to Joe. She felt awful for cheating on him, but more in the vein of how that’s morally wrong than in the vein of how it might hurt him to be cheated on by specifically her. This is consistent with the rather abstract way she talked about it with Dorothy — saying that Joe had been trying so hard to be good for her puts the focus on the unfairness of cheating on him, rather than the pain it was going to cause him to be cheated on.
There’s a difference between this characterization and the one you’ve been assigning Joyce, and that difference is that I don’t think Joyce has suddenly stopped caring deeply about other people.
— Also, and this next bit is backed up by an ask Willis answered on their tumblr, Joyce really does truly believe what she’s been saying about Dorothy being her destiny. She really does believe they fell in love at first sight and that everything in her life has been leading to this moment. As Willis put it, she’s an atheist now, but she remains pretty thoroughly Calvinist, too.
— So, she’s just been overwhelmed. She didn’t mean to leave Joe hanging, and she definitely didn’t do it because she suddenly stopped caring about him.
Which, for my money, makes “callous” the wrong word.
…oh and I didn’t say anything about Joe deserving to be cheated on. I don’t know where you got that idea, because I keep saying I think he’s ALSO sympathetic. I just don’t think he has a monopoly on that, or on being empathetic.
Thoughtless or callous, I think it’s just a matter of semantics at this point. We seem to be saying the same things – albeit with slightly different words. Is Sarah Willis’ mouthpiece? Every character is. But it’s not really relevant, as again we do seem to be saying the same things. You’re taking aspects of what I said to an extreme not intended.
But to clarify – please keep in mind the context here. I’m not arguing against you, I’m arguing about fictional characterization. So if I say something about Joe not deserving being cheated on, I’m speaking about the in-universe reality at play here from the perspective of the fictional characters as we may or may not interpret it. I meant nothing at all about your personal beliefs or opinions of what is okay or not okay – that’s certainly not my business one way or the other.
Well, it’s silly to tell me that Joe didn’t deserve to get cheated on if you don’t think that’s something I was arguing…?
Thoughtless = not realizing she’s hurting Joe. Consistent with previous characterization of Joyce as a deeply empathetic person who nevertheless has blind spots and a tendency to fixate on things.
Callous = not CARING that she’s hurting Joe. Inconsistent with previous characterization.
Anyway I hope the issue I’ve taken with your point is now clear. If not, I’m not sure what more I can do, but this is also several days back now so this is just the last day I’m gonna check back, FYI. Have a good one either way, and I hope you find the story rewarding, whichever of us turns out to have been correct about Willis’s intent and therefore the direction this is going in, if either of us.
Sure have fun with your little imaginary problema.
You know, it’s really sad that we can always count on you to defend Willis’s writing even more than the person themself does. That the moment someone expresses that they think the way the comic is being written is not to their taste, there’s you with the “but have you considered you’re wrong?”
I mean you are not really saying it’s not to your taste, you just saying you think it’s bad, for reasons that i don’t agree with. You seem to have an issue with anyone who don’t automatically agree with your criticism. So i guess two sides of a same coin here 🤷. I will continue to enjoy what i enjoy and saying so, and tell me i don’t agree with so (when i fell like it) and if that’s sad to you, i guess that’s how it is.
*say when i don’t agree with something
Yeah, such a shame that there are people in the comments for Willis’s comic who’ve been reading and enjoying Willis’s comics for years who give Willis the benefit of the doubt about where they’re going with a story or a character instead of just assuming on the basis of nothing whatsoever that everything that Willis writes is now shit and they’re just throwing away all the story and character development they’ve built up over the last fifteen years, and starting up a daily Two Minute Hate every time the main character appears. Clearly nadamás is the one who’s the problem here.
“To defend Willis even more than the person themself does” would probably land harder if you weren’t talking about someone who’s famously slow to defend themself and who keeps coming on here to manually restore a thread that’s dedicated to being negative about his current OTP.
Like. What else are you gonna sling at Namadás? Is he perhaps dryer than water? Colder than the equator?
Silly attempt at a put-down.
Oh my god thanks you that actually made me laugh. 😂
yw ❤️
“Aren’t we forgetting someone?”
“If we forgot, they weren’t important”
“Yeah, you are right”
Meanwhile, Sarah…
i assume sarah’s doing her own thing
Zero Body fat isnt a thing.
You could not stay alive that way. Several metabolic processes need fatty tissue.
Even very, very, very unhealthily skinny people like cancer survivors, end-stage opiate addicts or models still retain 10-15%.
Jacob is either being intentionally hyperbolic here, or has been misinformed by the bodybuilding-manosphere. Those bubbles believe some weird stuff.
I mean you dont really feel or care about the difference between 0% and 20% when you FREEZING
Speaking as someone with virtually no ability to gain body fat, believe me, NOT the superpower it sounds like 🥶
What about my post made you believe I consider low body fat a superpower?
I know its a state of malnourishment. Which causes a multitude of afflictions.
Only indoctrinated morons without any knowledge of physiology think a body-fat-content below 25-30% is anything but a detriment.
If you truly are at 20%? You should visit a doctor for that and take care to change it, its not healthy to live like that.
as someone with a lot of belly fat i’d say it wouldn’t necessarily protect me from the cold/i dont think i’ve seen anyone ‘obese/ chubby’ need less layers other than ppl who don’t get cold as easily/wear sandals all year no matter how cold. but other than adding protein powder and measuring weight occasionally idk how many guys bother calculating body fat
Dang, 11:16 my time and STILL no new comic. His server is behind or something.
love teh humble brag from jacob, but even with the muscles and working out i’d think he’d still have some body fat being that stout? versus just a full on bodybuilder type but it’s not like i’ve ogled 18-20 year old muscly guys (but that said i’d assume they’d use it as an excuse for him and lucy to cuddle closer)
Question for the author: I know Jacob must be bad at math since he claimed Sal is seventy-five percent hair. But is Jacob right that he has zero body fat?
Maybe Jacob is not bad at math but “fast and loose” with his percentages